Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[buckeyegrad]

This is really the point that we want to discuss here? USN&WR's current year rankings?

You do realize that USN&WR doesn't SOLELY rank schools based on academics, right?

USN&WR's rankings are a sham as they only measure inputs and reputation among each other. As bad as reputation is as a measure, even worse are the inputs, which can easily be and are manipulated.

 

[Woody1968]

This is really the point that we want to discuss here? USN&WR's current year rankings?

You do realize that USN&WR doesn't SOLELY rank schools based on academics, right?

I am not knocking your school at all, I am just pointing out that Oklahoma is regarded as similar in academics. Personally, I don't think either one is a bad school.

That said, the majority of people out there put much more cred in USN&WR rankings than care about the AAU or any of that. I certainly looked at the USN&WR rankings when I went to college, and did not even know what the AAU was until I heard about it in context of Big Ten expansion efforts in the 1990s.

 

[sepia5]

This is really the point that we want to discuss here? USN&WR's current year rankings?

You do realize that USN&WR doesn't SOLELY rank schools based on academics, right?

I think the rankings are overstated, but their rankings are designed around criteria that are supposed to quantify the quality of education offered by the school, which is what I think people mean when they refer shorthand to "academics." You can certainly debate the validity of those criteria, but the list of the critiera they use to varying degrees according to their website:

The indicators we use to capture academic quality fall into a number of categories: assessment by administrators at peer institutions, retention of students, faculty resources, student selectivity, financial resources, alumni giving, and (for National Universities and National Liberal Arts Colleges) high school counselor ratings of colleges and "graduation rate performance." The indicators include input measures that reflect a school's student body, its faculty, and its financial resources, along with outcome measures that signal how well the institution does its job of educating students.

http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...calculates-the-college-rankings-2012?PageNr=2

I just thought it was odd that, when someone responded to your assertion that Oklahoma's academics were "far worse" than Nebraska's by pointing out that the two schools are currently tied in the USN&WR rankings, you, in turn, responded that Nebraska used to be much higher rated. That doesn't exactly seem to suggest that the schools are headed in a direction favorable to your assertion that Nebraska is a much better academic school. But I think it is a mistake to look at the USN&WR rankings in a vacuum when assessing academic quality, and, in any event, academic quality does not seem to be the only criterion the Big Ten is looking to in considering new members.

 

[knapplc]

I am not knocking your school at all, I am just pointing out that Oklahoma is regarded as similar in academics. Personally, I don't think either one is a bad school.

That said, the majority of people out there put much more cred in USN&WR rankings than care about the AAU or any of that. I certainly looked at the USN&WR rankings when I went to college, and did not even know what the AAU was until I heard about it in context of Big Ten expansion efforts in the 1990s.

Except that USN&WR doesn't gauge academic quality, their rating encompasses as much of the college experience as possible, from enrollment to tuition costs to class size to "reputation." A number of colleges and universities won't even participate in their rankings process because they don't measure actual academic worth.

I'm right there with you on the AAU, though. I had heard of it, in passing, some time ago. But like most people I never paid any attention to it. My first true thoughts about the AAU came when I first discovered that NU was being considered for Big Ten membership. It came up in several conversations as a badge of honor, but I never once stopped to think what it meant to NU that we were AAU members. I didn't think about it again until they kicked us out. Since then I've been wondering what, exactly, was the benefit of being an AAU member, other than yet another plaque to hang on your wall. I am unaware of any tangible benefit the university gained by being a member of the AAU - with the glaring exception that it seems to have boosted our acceptance into the Big Ten.


@Sepia - I get where you're coming from. I more responded out of school loyalty up there than in keeping with the vein of the conversation. Had my school blinders on.

 

[Muck]

I'm starting to wonder if we might end up with five 14-team conferences.

I just realized BB73 has me on ignore.

What I really like about a potential ND-Texas addition is the potential death of Legends and Leaders. With the addition of Texas as an anchor in the West, it's very possible to have this alignment:

Big Ten East: Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame
Big Ten West: Illinois, Northwestern, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Texas

Good competitive balance, all of Notre Dame's conference rivals in division, no doubling up OSU/Michigan.

Protected crossovers:
Penn State - Nebraska
Ohio State - Wisconsin
Michigan - Minnesota
Michigan State - Iowa
Indiana - Illinois
Purdue - Northwestern
Notre Dame - Texas

I think that would work really well.

There is practically zero chance of B1G placing 4 of the 'elites' (Ohio State, TSUN, Penn St & ND) in one division & 2 (Nebraska & Texas) in the other.

The easiest course of action would be to just slide UT into the Legends & ND into the Leaders. That would prevent the possibility of everyone going back over the same ground they fought over last year as to where they wanted to be in relation to other schools in the conference. Yes that means ND would probably have to pick Sparty OR TSUN as their protected cross division rival...but it would also keep from opening up old wounds with a large number of other schools.

Is TSUN AND Sparty a deal breaker for ND when they'll have the exposure of playing Ohio State, Penn State annually as well as Texas & Nebraska on a regular basis?

Even if Okie and/or Okie State were to depart the Big 12, I see Tejas as being able to recruit one or more of the following to be reasonable replacements to keep the league at a minimum of 10 teams: TCU (yes, I know, they just joined the Big East - so what?), SMU, U of Houston, BYU. So if Beebe is aggressive, he still might be able to.

So TCU might not want to throw their golden ticket away to jump into a conference that is still potentially liable to collapse at any time.

And BYU has already said no Oklahoma = no BYU.

 

[Gatorubet]

But I think it is a mistake to look at the USN&WR rankings in a vacuum when assessing academic quality, and, in any event, academic quality does not seem to be the only criterion the Big Ten is looking to in considering new members.

It appears to be a straight forward criteria of increased TV viewership without abandoning the academic excellence for which the conference is known. Texas likely has a greater TV market, while ND has a larger alumni base. ND's academics are more highly ranked. I would think that a Texas and Virginia combo would be a better match, with entirely new markets in two different areas of the country and very acceptable academics - without the arrogance of Notre Dame's administration. Hell, Texas and its ego will be enough to keep your commissioner busy without having to placate the Domers too.

 

[BB73]

Man, there is nothing like that ignore feature, otherwise this thread could get all Mucked up.

 

[buckeyegrad]

ND's academics are more highly ranked.

I take it you mean as an undergraduate institution. As a graduate institution or in terms of research, ND doesn't come close to TX or any of the current B1G schools.

 

[BengalsAndBucks]

I take it you mean as an undergraduate institution. As a graduate institution or in terms of research, ND doesn't come close to TX or any of the current B1G schools.

And research is where the real money comes from.

 

[Woody1968]

OrangeBloods now says that the ACC is Texas second choice unless the Big 12-2-1 stays together. I don't have a link, because it is on the pay site.

 

[knapplc]

OrangeBloods now says that the ACC is Texas second choice unless the Big 12-2-1 stays together. I don't have a link, because it is on the pay site.

Texas can just about call their shot here. They are the Golden Goose of conference expansion. I have a hard time believing they would settle for the ACC if the SEC, Big Ten and/or PAC-12 are options.

 

[Woody1968]

Texas can just about call their shot here. They are the Golden Goose of conference expansion. I have a hard time believing they would settle for the ACC if the SEC, Big Ten and/or PAC-12 are options.

I could see the ACC being more proactive than the other conferences though. If the 16 team conferences are coming, either the ACC or the Big East is done. Hence, they have reason to become more aggressive.

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

RE: Texas to ACC

1.) Posturing by UT to sweeten deal to a different league
2.) ACC get name in the news to look like a player

or

3.) UT actually interested in staying the king of a conference, ACC is closer to BXII than the B1G in terms of football prowess.


When I think of the Atlantic Coast, one of the first states that comes to mind is Texas. I realize Texas isn't exactly midwest, it definitely isn't east coast.

 

[MaxBuck]

When I think of the Atlantic Coast, one of the first states that comes to mind is Texas. I realize Texas isn't exactly midwest, it definitely isn't east coast.

For Tejas to join, one of the preconditions will be renaming the conference the GCC.

 

[broken24]

Except that USN&WR doesn't gauge academic quality, their rating encompasses as much of the college experience as possible, from enrollment to tuition costs to class size to "reputation." A number of colleges and universities won't even participate in their rankings process because they don't measure actual academic worth.

I'm right there with you on the AAU, though. I had heard of it, in passing, some time ago. But like most people I never paid any attention to it. My first true thoughts about the AAU came when I first discovered that NU was being considered for Big Ten membership. It came up in several conversations as a badge of honor, but I never once stopped to think what it meant to NU that we were AAU members. I didn't think about it again until they kicked us out. Since then I've been wondering what, exactly, was the benefit of being an AAU member, other than yet another plaque to hang on your wall. I am unaware of any tangible benefit the university gained by being a member of the AAU - with the glaring exception that it seems to have boosted our acceptance into the Big Ten.

AAU is all about research. Research $ are huge. The prestige of AAU membership brings a lot. Check out the names of the members. http://www.aau.edu/about/default.aspx?id=5476

All B1G schools are big time research Universities. Oklahoma not so much. USN&WR ratings have nothing to do with grad school nor research.

On top of that Okla. has an uglier sister that is attached to it's hip. Nebraska did not.