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(6) THE Ohio State vs. (11) Dayton, Thurs 3/20, 12:15p ET, CBS

How about seeing Aaron craft with Lucas, Havlicek, Nowell? Put Kellogg at the other forward.

We don't have to go back that far - assuming you take Craft over Conley - you'd have a 5 of Craft - Turner - Lighty - Sully - Oden and that's winning you a National Title every time. Especially when you can run a bench of Conley/Craft, Cook, Buford, Diebler, Butler, Dials and Hunter/Big D/Ravenel on the bench.
 
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Here are some combined offensive numbers during Matta's tenure at Ohio State:

FG %: .471 (9266-19687)
3PT%: .363 (2463-6785)
FT %: .698 (4839-6931)

Here's how the combined Matta team would rank compared to all NCAA teams for this season:

FG %: #38
3PT%: #89
FT %: #176

By the way, if we take Jon Diebler out of the equation, the Buckeyes' 3-point percentage drops to .355, which would place them at #118 compared to this year's NCAA teams.

We all loved Jim Tressel, but we eventually had to admit that his teams had some offensive shortcomings, and that those shortcomings were somehow inherent in his system. I think that we can say the same thing for Matta: For some reason, his teams struggle beyond the arc and especially at the line.

Those are good stats and certainly could support the notion that Matta's teams do struggle shooting. But the solution is to fire Thad Matta? Because that's the notion to which I was originally responding, if you read back through Kyle's post in which he said people were clamoring for Thad's job after the loss yesterday.

Isn't that the essence of coaching, especially at the college level? Isn't it the coach's job to get the team to play with fire, to make them understand the game, to keep the kids from making dumb decisions?

I think the coach can move the needle, but I also believe there are limits to a coach's ability to transform a player's approach and understanding of the game. Do you think that Shannon doesn't foul the three point shooter with under a minute to go and OSU up two if Coach K (or John Wooden, or whomever) is on the sidelines instead of Thad? Because I think he still commits that foul.
 
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Here are some combined offensive numbers during Matta's tenure at Ohio State:

FG %: .471 (9266-19687)
3PT%: .363 (2463-6785)
FT %: .698 (4839-6931)

Here's how the combined Matta team would rank compared to all NCAA teams for this season:

FG %: #38
3PT%: #89
FT %: #176
FG% is in the top 11% of the NCAA.
3PT% is in the top 25%.
FT% is on the wrong side of 50%.

I can live with the first two, the last one is deficient, obviously. You're also leaving out half of the statistics equation... what about his combined defensive numbers? Def FG%? Def 3PT%? PPG rank (both defensive and offensive)? If you don't have time, I can look those up later this afternoon. I'm curious to see where they would stack up.
 
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A good year for a team that had good talent. I think we missed having Chris Jent work on kids' shots.

Maybe we need a "big man coach", too, someone on staff who played big and was successful in college and maybe the NBA. Imagine what Rick Mahorn would do on the OSU staff, and how he could help our bigs?

I think Matta is a great coach, but with his health issues you know he is not going to be out there on the floor pushing Amir around... Can Greg Paulus coach a big guy?

Anyway, once I accepted that this team wasn't Final Four material, it made it easier to watch the games. Let's hope MSU takes it all.
 
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We lost because:
Matta lost control of this team very early in the season, the team was divided, and because Williams went from a very agressive freshman to a junior who seems to have given up.

What I can't understand is why any of them believes that they are better than they are. Then I listen to most of you, and I know why. Those of you who feel this was an upset, raise your hand.

That's the problem.
I did not know where you get your information from regarding Ohio State basketball but wherever you got that piece of information you should regurgitate it. I have seen numerous quotes from Matta and some players throughout the season that this is one of the closest teams Matta has ever had.
 
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Sorry about the WOT, but I've been keeping this all in for quite a while.

First, let's not lose sight of the big picture: Coach Matta, is obviously doing a much better job at OSU than any other hoops coach has in a long time. And he's doing it with class. I'm certainly not going to be hating on him. I want him to retire when he wants to and as a legend here.

Second, despite the first point, nobody is immune to criticism. How much criticism of Matta is appropriate may depend largely on where you think the realistic ceiling is for Ohio State basketball. Should we expect to compete for national championships in hoops at our "football" school or are annual appearances in the tourney with a goal of getting through the first weekend and occasional hopes of going farther the best we can expect over the long term?

I believe that given the strength of Ohio H.S. basketball these days, OSU's facilities and other resources, and the success of once-nobody programs like Florida and UCONN, that there's no reason why OSU should expect to do anything less than compete for national championships. Other than UNC, Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky (maybe IU or UCLA if they get the right coaches), I believe that OSU should be able to recruit with anyone on an annual basis and therefore play with anyone in most years. I consider the decades in the wilderness as a blown opportunity rather than a systemic weakness: Does anyone think that OSU wouldn't have been elite in the 1970s and 1980s if they had brought Bob Knight home instead of pumpkining up the coaching search?

Third, I think that basketball is the simplest of the major sports and that winning is simply a matter of generating more easy scoring opportunities than the opponent. While there are a lot of ways to do this, to me the most critical are: (1) To be committed to and efficient at scoring in transition; (2) To get a lot of offensive rebounds and easy put-backs; (3) To shoot (and make) a lot of free throws; and (4) To generate a lot of open three point shots. Obviously, the defensive goal is to limit the opponent in doing all of these things.

Fourth, given my assumptions in the third point, and not panicking too much over this year, which I believe was somewhat aberrational, I believe that the main weaknesses with the program (evidenced consistently over Matta's tenure) that stand in the way of competing for and winning national championships are:

1. Insufficient tempo. Ohio State simply plays at too slow of a tempo (look at the stats). Especially over the last two years, I fear that Ohio State is becoming Wisconsin, and I agree entirely with LordJeff's longstanding assessment of the limitations of that style of play when competing against top teams. This year, this was especially glaring, given the team's inefficiency in set offense and largely untapped strength of ball hawking. I think that applying serious full-court pressure MUCH more often would have greatly benefited this year's team (I understand that some prior teams might not have had the bench for it). I believe that a commitment to a faster tempo alone would have gotten OSU past Kentucky in 2011 and that that team would have gone on to win the title. I also think that playing this slowly will eventually hinder recruiting, if it hasn't already.

2. Insufficient physical toughness. Excluding an outlier beast like Sullinger, Matta's teams have not been particularly good at rebounding or finishing scoring opportunities at the rim. Put 'em in pads in practice occasionally like Izzo does, recruit some wider tougher guys, coach reboundings fundamentals better . . . I don't know what the best solution is, but I do think one is needed

3. Insufficient mental toughness and basketball IQ. This isn't intended to bash players, and I do think that Matta's teams generally play hard and with commitment (Amir and maybe Ross notwithstanding, Craft isn't the only guy that gets floor burns)) and a decent degree of discipline (they've typically been good at not fouling and in holding opponents to a low FG percentage) but let me explain. First, I'm talking about a lack of mission clarity: When I watch most of Matta's teams, I don't know what their offensive identity is (i.e., what are they trying to hang their hat on and make opponents adjust to?) OSU typically seems content to settle for playing at the tempo desired by the other team, and to take what the other team is giving them, even if it's not what they're good at, rather than recognizing what they are good at and finding a way to do that regardless of what the other team wants to take away. Close games in the low-fifties against teams like Northwestern and undermanned Illinois and Penn State teams over the years (even if most have been wins) highlight this for me. I feel like the program has been getting away with this for much of Matta's tenure, and that this year, and to a lesser extent last year, it finally started to really bite them in the ass on a consistant basis.

4. Insufficient attention to detail in the development of fundamental individual and team offensive skills. A lot of guys just don't seem to be getting much better over the course of their careers. Another thing that, over time, is likely to hurt recruiting, if it hasn't already (can we land a big man this year please?) This phenomenon seems worse in recent years, and I wonder how much the loss of top assistant coaches has contributed to it. Watch KU and UNC guards consistently feed the post precisely and in a way that that puts the post player in great position to score, then watch OSU guards try to do it (admittedly right now they have nobody to throw it in to), notice how hesitant OSU teams often are in deciding where to pass the ball (the 2010-11 ball movement juggernaut being the exception that proves the rule) and how often they don't make the right decision on the fast break or finish at the rim (again, I think that faster tempo would help develop these skills). Why do players seem to stagnate or get worse at jump shooting over the course of their careers?

5. Free throw shooting. In most years they done a pretty good job of getting to the line (it would be better with more offensive rebounds and a faster tempo IMO) and a very good job of keeping other teams off of the line. No need to rehash what happens when they shoot free throws.

Excluding the last two years, I'm not convinced that three point shooting is so much a weakness as just not a strength. I think it would be better with great offensive mission clarity (point 3) and faster tempo (both help kids make the right pass to the right man more often and more quickly and better looks from the right shooters should go down more often).

Finally, one other thing that concerns me is that Matta's teams have typically played freely and with confidence and trust in one another, even at a slow tempo. I think that this has been a great strength of the program under him, but it has not been evident in the last two years. Maybe the big recruiting class will bring that back. I hope so. If it doesn't we may have already seen Matta's peak at OSU.

Solutions? Let's call 'em experiments since all of the above might just be armchair bullshit. 1. Commit to playing faster; 2. Commit to an offensive identity and then recruit to it. 3. Take a hard look at the assistant coaches and make sure that they are committed to and capable of instilling strong fundamental offensive skiils. If they are, push them really hard to do so. If not, replace them.

Edit: MODS, this probably should be on Matta's thread, so please move it if you agree.
 
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Sorry about the WOT, but I've been keeping this all in for quite a while.
While I respect your opinions and disagree with quite a few of them, I wonder if you would have made this post if we had beaten Dayton yesterday. Maybe someday when I have the time I will respond to a couple of your points but today is not that day.

I will say that Ohio high school basketball has been down for the past couple years and it is just like football recruiting other big schools are coming in and fighting for the major talent.

I will also say that in order to play run and gun which you seem to favor you need a very deep bench in order for that style to work and there are not many schools that play that kind of basketball any longer.
 
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While I respect your opinions and disagree with quite a few of them, I wonder if you would have made this post if we had beaten Dayton yesterday. Maybe someday when I have the time I will respond to a couple of your points but today is not that day.

I will say that Ohio high school basketball has been down for the past couple years and it is just like football recruiting other big schools are coming in and fighting for the major talent.

I will also say that in order to play run and gun which you seem to favor you need a very deep bench in order for that style to work and there are not many schools that play that kind of basketball any longer.

No, I would not have made it. But only because I needed the annoyance of yesterday to motivate me to spend as much time as it took to write. I've been thinking many of the thoughts for several years. I'm not advocating for a run 'n gun', at least not necessarily, but OSU is well in the 200s in tempo ranking most years. This year is highly unusual in that a lot of the top seeds play slowly, but I think that those teams will lose to faster teams at some point. We'll see.
 
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No, I would not have made it. But only because I needed the annoyance of yesterday to motivate me to spend as much time as it took to write. I've been thinking many of the thoughts for several years. I'm not advocating for a run 'n gun', at least not necessarily, but OSU is well in the 200s in tempo ranking most years. This year is highly unusual in that a lot of the top seeds play slowly, but I think that those teams will lose to faster teams at some point. We'll see.
you probably should move your posts to the Official Basketball thread because it is going to get lost here when this threat is moved.
 
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Solutions? Let's call 'em experiments since all of the above might just be armchair bull[Mark May]. 1. Commit to playing faster; 2. Commit to an offensive identity and then recruit to it. 3. Take a hard look at the assistant coaches and make sure that they are committed to and capable of instilling strong fundamental offensive skiils. If they are, push them really hard to do so. If not, replace them.

Edit: MODS, this probably should be on Matta's thread, so please move it if you agree.
I disagree entirely with your last paragraph about "Solutions". Exactly how fast do you want them to play? I can see pushing the ball upcourt quicker but why do you have to play faster? In past years, quite a few people have complained that Matta has only played 5-6 guys and if you want to play faster you are going to need a deeper bench and that means you are going to have to have 8-9 pretty good players and in this day and age is very difficult to recruit that many talented players.

I just cannot believe that you are second-guessing his assistant coaches. He hired them and I do not think he would have if they did not agree with his philosophy of basketball.

MODS: Please move these posts to Coach Matta's thread
where they would get more of a response. This thread is going to be moved into the Game Capsules and will get lost.
 
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Here are some combined offensive numbers during Matta's tenure at Ohio State:

FG %: .471 (9266-19687)
3PT%: .363 (2463-6785)
FT %: .698 (4839-6931)

Here's how the combined Matta team would rank compared to all NCAA teams for this season:

FG %: #38
3PT%: #89
FT %: #176
Combined defensive numbers during Matta's tenure:
FG %: .407 (8070-19844)
3PT%: .329 (2300-6993)

Those numbers compared to NCAA teams this year:
FG %: #48
3PT%: #95
 
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Sorry about the WOT, but I've been keeping this all in for quite a while.

First, let's not lose sight of the big picture: Coach Matta, is obviously doing a much better job at OSU than any other hoops coach has in a long time. And he's doing it with class. I'm certainly not going to be hating on him. I want him to retire when he wants to and as a legend here.

Second, despite the first point, nobody is immune to criticism. How much criticism of Matta is appropriate may depend largely on where you think the realistic ceiling is for Ohio State basketball. Should we expect to compete for national championships in hoops at our "football" school or are annual appearances in the tourney with a goal of getting through the first weekend and occasional hopes of going farther the best we can expect over the long term?

I believe that given the strength of Ohio H.S. basketball these days, OSU's facilities and other resources, and the success of once-nobody programs like Florida and UCONN, that there's no reason why OSU should expect to do anything less than compete for national championships. Other than UNC, Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky (maybe IU or UCLA if they get the right coaches), I believe that OSU should be able to recruit with anyone on an annual basis and therefore play with anyone in most years. I consider the decades in the wilderness as a blown opportunity rather than a systemic weakness: Does anyone think that OSU wouldn't have been elite in the 1970s and 1980s if they had brought Bob Knight home instead of pumpkining up the coaching search?

Third, I think that basketball is the simplest of the major sports and that winning is simply a matter of generating more easy scoring opportunities than the opponent. While there are a lot of ways to do this, to me the most critical are: (1) To be committed to and efficient at scoring in transition; (2) To get a lot of offensive rebounds and easy put-backs; (3) To shoot (and make) a lot of free throws; and (4) To generate a lot of open three point shots. Obviously, the defensive goal is to limit the opponent in doing all of these things.

Fourth, given my assumptions in the third point, and not panicking too much over this year, which I believe was somewhat aberrational, I believe that the main weaknesses with the program (evidenced consistently over Matta's tenure) that stand in the way of competing for and winning national championships are:

1. Insufficient tempo. Ohio State simply plays at too slow of a tempo (look at the stats). Especially over the last two years, I fear that Ohio State is becoming Wisconsin, and I agree entirely with LordJeff's longstanding assessment of the limitations of that style of play when competing against top teams. This year, this was especially glaring, given the team's inefficiency in set offense and largely untapped strength of ball hawking. I think that applying serious full-court pressure MUCH more often would have greatly benefited this year's team (I understand that some prior teams might not have had the bench for it). I believe that a commitment to a faster tempo alone would have gotten OSU past Kentucky in 2011 and that that team would have gone on to win the title. I also think that playing this slowly will eventually hinder recruiting, if it hasn't already.

2. Insufficient physical toughness. Excluding an outlier beast like Sullinger, Matta's teams have not been particularly good at rebounding or finishing scoring opportunities at the rim. Put 'em in pads in practice occasionally like Izzo does, recruit some wider tougher guys, coach reboundings fundamentals better . . . I don't know what the best solution is, but I do think one is needed

3. Insufficient mental toughness and basketball IQ. This isn't intended to bash players, and I do think that Matta's teams generally play hard and with commitment (Amir and maybe Ross notwithstanding, Craft isn't the only guy that gets floor burns)) and a decent degree of discipline (they've typically been good at not fouling and in holding opponents to a low FG percentage) but let me explain. First, I'm talking about a lack of mission clarity: When I watch most of Matta's teams, I don't know what their offensive identity is (i.e., what are they trying to hang their hat on and make opponents adjust to?) OSU typically seems content to settle for playing at the tempo desired by the other team, and to take what the other team is giving them, even if it's not what they're good at, rather than recognizing what they are good at and finding a way to do that regardless of what the other team wants to take away. Close games in the low-fifties against teams like Northwestern and undermanned Illinois and Penn State teams over the years (even if most have been wins) highlight this for me. I feel like the program has been getting away with this for much of Matta's tenure, and that this year, and to a lesser extent last year, it finally started to really bite them in the ass on a consistant basis.

4. Insufficient attention to detail in the development of fundamental individual and team offensive skills. A lot of guys just don't seem to be getting much better over the course of their careers. Another thing that, over time, is likely to hurt recruiting, if it hasn't already (can we land a big man this year please?) This phenomenon seems worse in recent years, and I wonder how much the loss of top assistant coaches has contributed to it. Watch KU and UNC guards consistently feed the post precisely and in a way that that puts the post player in great position to score, then watch OSU guards try to do it (admittedly right now they have nobody to throw it in to), notice how hesitant OSU teams often are in deciding where to pass the ball (the 2010-11 ball movement juggernaut being the exception that proves the rule) and how often they don't make the right decision on the fast break or finish at the rim (again, I think that faster tempo would help develop these skills). Why do players seem to stagnate or get worse at jump shooting over the course of their careers?

5. Free throw shooting. In most years they done a pretty good job of getting to the line (it would be better with more offensive rebounds and a faster tempo IMO) and a very good job of keeping other teams off of the line. No need to rehash what happens when they shoot free throws.

Excluding the last two years, I'm not convinced that three point shooting is so much a weakness as just not a strength. I think it would be better with great offensive mission clarity (point 3) and faster tempo (both help kids make the right pass to the right man more often and more quickly and better looks from the right shooters should go down more often).

Finally, one other thing that concerns me is that Matta's teams have typically played freely and with confidence and trust in one another, even at a slow tempo. I think that this has been a great strength of the program under him, but it has not been evident in the last two years. Maybe the big recruiting class will bring that back. I hope so. If it doesn't we may have already seen Matta's peak at OSU.

Solutions? Let's call 'em experiments since all of the above might just be armchair bull[Mark May]. 1. Commit to playing faster; 2. Commit to an offensive identity and then recruit to it. 3. Take a hard look at the assistant coaches and make sure that they are committed to and capable of instilling strong fundamental offensive skiils. If they are, push them really hard to do so. If not, replace them.

Edit: MODS, this probably should be on Matta's thread, so please move it if you agree.
Okay, I will try and respond to some of your points.

As I have already said regarding Ohio State recruiting, the past couple years has been down years when it has come to high school basketball talent. The talent level is starting to improve so we shall see how Matta improves in this area. However, you have to remember that this is no different than football recruiting. When there is big-time talent, you are going to have to go up against the big time basketball powers.

I also think it is slightly unfair to compare our basketball facilities to other big-time facilities across the country. Yes, we have made great strides the past couple years in getting a brand-new practice facility but before that it was not all that great. I also think that the Schot has a lot to be desired when it comes to a basketball atmosphere and recruits see that. It has very nice locker rooms and other amenities but only in recent years have the students really become a factor and Ohio State students leave a lot to be desired when comparing them to the students of other schools. Ohio State students are cheering "We do not give a damn for those state of Michigan" when we are playing a team that is not even from the state up north. I bet that really impresses a potential recruit.

With that, I will address some of your individual points.

1. Insufficient tempo: I too wish that they would push the ball a little quicker but when you do that you have to have a fairly deep bench or you are going to wear the guys out not just during a game but over the course of a season. I believe that we would have gotten some easier baskets if we would have pushed the ball a little more but sometimes you sacrifice whatever rebounding advantage you might have when you try to go with a quicker tempo. I cannot believe you compared us to Wisconsin because during the year Wisconsin put up quite a few points and they were not really a up-tempo team. They just had better shooters. However, Wisconsin also had a much deeper bench than Ohio State as did Michigan State.

2. Insufficient physical toughness: I will not disagree with you here but that has to come from the players not to coaches. I think if you are tall and lanky you should not have to be physically tough and if you are going to recruit physically tough guys you are not going to be able to run an up-tempo offense.

3. Insufficient mental toughness and basketball IQ:
I will agree that this year's team was probably not mentally tough but that has to come from the player not to coach and I think it is unfair to blame Matta for this. He can only scream at his players so much before you lose them. Mental toughness has to come from the player himself. Not the coach. They probably did not come out with the same intensity that they should have every game but I do not think that there is any team in the country that comes out every game with the intensity that their coach Wants them to come out with. However, as I stated, the coach can only instill so much before he starts to lose guys.

4.Insufficient attention to detail in the development of fundamental individual and team offensive skills:
I think quite a bit of this past be put on the players themselves. Again, coaches and assistant coaches can only do so much and it is up to the player to improve their game. I do not think it is because of the lack of coaching.

5
. Free throws: Once again I go back to the player. Having played the game this is practice, repetition, practice, repetition. A coach can only teach them so much and then it is up to the player to do these things. Only so much time can be taken out of practice time for individual drills such as free-throw shooting, passing, dribbling, and just general overall shooting.
 
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We don't have to go back that far - assuming you take Craft over Conley - you'd have a 5 of Craft - Turner - Lighty - Sully - Oden and that's winning you a National Title every time. Especially when you can run a bench of Conley/Craft, Cook, Buford, Diebler, Butler, Dials and Hunter/Big D/Ravenel on the bench.



Conley is the best player of the Matta era.
 
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Okay, I will try and respond to some of your points.

As I have already said regarding Ohio State recruiting, the past couple years has been down years when it has come to high school basketball talent. The talent level is starting to improve so we shall see how Matta improves in this area. However, you have to remember that this is no different than football recruiting. When there is big-time talent, you are going to have to go up against the big time basketball powers.

I also think it is slightly unfair to compare our basketball facilities to other big-time facilities across the country. Yes, we have made great strides the past couple years in getting a brand-new practice facility but before that it was not all that great. I also think that the Schot has a lot to be desired when it comes to a basketball atmosphere and recruits see that. It has very nice locker rooms and other amenities but only in recent years have the students really become a factor and Ohio State students leave a lot to be desired when comparing them to the students of other schools. Ohio State students are cheering "We do not give a damn for those state of Michigan" when we are playing a team that is not even from the state up north. I bet that really impresses a potential recruit.

With that, I will address some of your individual points.

1. Insufficient tempo: I too wish that they would push the ball a little quicker but when you do that you have to have a fairly deep bench or you are going to wear the guys out not just during a game but over the course of a season. I believe that we would have gotten some easier baskets if we would have pushed the ball a little more but sometimes you sacrifice whatever rebounding advantage you might have when you try to go with a quicker tempo. I cannot believe you compared us to Wisconsin because during the year Wisconsin put up quite a few points and they were not really a up-tempo team. They just had better shooters. However, Wisconsin also had a much deeper bench than Ohio State as did Michigan State.

2. Insufficient physical toughness: I will not disagree with you here but that has to come from the players not to coaches. I think if you are tall and lanky you should not have to be physically tough and if you are going to recruit physically tough guys you are not going to be able to run an up-tempo offense.

3. Insufficient mental toughness and basketball IQ:
I will agree that this year's team was probably not mentally tough but that has to come from the player not to coach and I think it is unfair to blame Matta for this. He can only scream at his players so much before you lose them. Mental toughness has to come from the player himself. Not the coach. They probably did not come out with the same intensity that they should have every game but I do not think that there is any team in the country that comes out every game with the intensity that their coach Wants them to come out with. However, as I stated, the coach can only instill so much before he starts to lose guys.

4.Insufficient attention to detail in the development of fundamental individual and team offensive skills:
I think quite a bit of this past be put on the players themselves. Again, coaches and assistant coaches can only do so much and it is up to the player to improve their game. I do not think it is because of the lack of coaching.
5. Free throws: Once again I go back to the player. Having played the game this is practice, repetition, practice, repetition. A coach can only teach them so much and then it is up to the player to do these things. Only so much time can be taken out of practice time for individual drills such as free-throw shooting, passing, dribbling, and just general overall shooting.
Thad won the Booby prize ..when Scott and Williams said yes to tOSU.
 
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