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5 players suspended for 5 games in 2011 regular season (Appeal has been denied)

LordJeffBuck;1843251; said:
What "ethical" standard do you want to use?

I don't want to put words in cinci's mouth, but I imagine the standard would be the one set by past precedent, which is, once a player is found to have committed NCAA violations, he is suspended immediately. The application of this standard is akin to ethical behavior because the standard is intended to be blind, mechanical, and uncompromising, and therefore diverging from the standard for ulterior purposes could be seen as "unethical" (ie, the governing body picks and chooses how the rules will be applied to satisfy its own perceived interests). The application of the standard becomes even more ethically bound if one accepts that a component of NCAA rules is the enforcement of a set of values that will provide an example for impressionable student athletes.

To me, the NCAA just seems so cynical at this given time. Between this decision, and the Cam Newton saga, the NCAA strikes me as a purely self-interested organization that operates under the guise of rules and regulations that it is happy to apply piecemeal to satisfy its own interests, then offer any number of contrived, half-assed explanations for why its decisions are not out-of-the-ordinary. That is to say, I have the distinct feeling it is operating in an unethical manner.
 
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matt_thatsme;1843109; said:
My thoughts after Spielman made those comments were this: If the NCAA insisted on allowing the players to play in the Sugar Bowl, would sitting those players against the NCAA's wishes not make the chance of them reducing the suspension less likely?

I definitely agree that this is not like the Belisari situation.

What do you think about sitting them for the first quarter, first series, half, etc? More of a symbolic statement than anything.

Belasari played in the bowl game.
 
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There are two ethical standards maybe more the individuals own and the NCAA ...the players agree they broke NCAA rules but deep down they probably don't think they acted unethically..they sold items that belonged to them...many here applying their own ethical standards want the players to sit out the Bowl..the Big 10, NCAA, and team want them to play. Now its soley up to JT if they play...is he acting umethically if they play?
 
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DaveyBoy;1843240; said:
This article suggests otherwise...

There is an alternative viewpoint that seems much more plausible. Here is the essence of the article that you cite:

Hoolahan said he appealed to Smith to do everything he could to ensure the Buckeyes players could be in uniform in New Orleans.


"I made the point that anything that could be done to preserve the integrity of this year's game, we would greatly appreciate it," Hoolahan said. "That appeal did not fall on deaf ears, and I'm extremely excited about it, that the Buckeyes are coming in at full strength and with no dilution."

Many Ohio State fans believe the suspensions should start immediately.

"I appreciate and fully understand the Midwestern values and ethics behind that," Hoolahan said. "But I'm probably thinking of this from a selfish perspective."
This suggests a different and more likely scenario. Ohio State notified the NCAA about the issue that had arisen and its internal deliberations about suspensions. The NCAA responded tentatively, citing the precedent for five-game suspensions. Ohio State decided to start the suspension immediately but appeal its duration. Ohio State notified the NCAA and the Sugar Bowl of its intention and all hell broke loose.

On hearing the news, Hoolahan and the Sugar Bowl people went ballistic. You can imagine the telephone call when Hollahan told Ohio State that suspending the players would cost the Sugar Bowl millions in advertising revenues for years to come. Consequently, Hoolahan then made it clear that faithfulness to "Midwestern values" would have a price that Ohio State and the Big Ten could not afford to pay.

Do you really think that this conversation happened in the PR speak of that article? Do you really think that Hoolahan has made his involvement public out of altruism?

When Hoolahan mentions deaf ears, he more likely means that Ohio State understood the implications of the threats he made, not that he found willing co-conspirators. It is clear that Ohio State tried to assert the argument that it had to be faithful to the values that Ohio State and its constituency endorse. Hoolahan makes it very clear that his job was to protect the interests of the Sugar Bowl and he could care less if that offended anyone's sensibilities. And why should he, especially when nobody broke the law and the loss of millions against the chump change the player's received seemed too high a price for the Sugar Bowl to pay?

Anyone who has worked at this level knows what that conversation was like. No doubt, Hoolahan made it very clear to the Big Ten and Ohio State that, if they did not help him lobby the NCAA to lift the suspensions for the bowl game, Ohio State could be sure that the Sugar Bowl would be doing everything in their power to avoid hosting a Big Ten team in the future, and to do whatever they could to exclude Ohio State and the Big Ten teams from considerations for at-large berths.

It sounds very much like Ohio State tried very hard to stand for doing what it thought was right but then found the BCS, Sugar Bowl, NCAA, and the Big Ten making very explicit promises if they were faithful to their "Midwestern values" would have a price that Ohio State and the Big Ten did not want to pay.

Now, I know that some posters here would be saying, "Fine. Then we pay that price."

Sure, that sounds great now, but what about a couple of years down the road, when Ohio State teams that qualify for an at-large BCS berth are playing in the Liberty Bowl?

I am of the opinion that Ohio State did everything that it could to enforce an immediate suspension before finally deciding that the price was too high to continue.
 
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The more I read and think about this the more I say "[censored] all these people and let them play!"

Continue the appeal and get it reduced to as few games as possble for next season. Hell, the NCAA has made it obvious that they are willing to be "lobbied" right?

If what these kids did was so wrong as to warrant 5 [censored]ing games (imo 5 games is excessive anyway for what they did) then why is the NCAA allowing itself to be "lobbied" by Gene Smith and the Sugar Bowl chairman???

Jim Tressel should be [censored]ed. He's been left holding the bag so to speak. He has the media crowing (and some fans - no [censored]ing way is it 80% - 90% at this point) - about Ohio State "doing the right thing" and sitting the kids for the bowl game while his boss and the boss of the Sugar Bowl went after the NCAA to let them PLAY in the bowl game.

Then the NCAA puts out that release yesterday on its web site about how money and favoritism play no role in their decision making, yet I'll say it again: they allow themselves to be lobbied into allowing the kids to play in the bowl game.

Absolutely ridiculous. Gene Smith has lost a little credibility on this one, imo.
 
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Arguing "ethics" is ridiculous in light of parents "shopping" their kids to the highest bidder and getting away with it. That is a much bigger "ethics" problem than kids selling jerseys and "trinkets" that they own. Just sayin'.
 
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I suspect that Steve's summation is mostly accurate. From what I've read, though, Jim Delany was also a significant factor in favor of delaying the suspensions. Before he was a conference commissioner, he worked in the NCAA enforcement division for a few years. Whether his postition was formed before or after he talked to Sugar Bowl officials is something we'll probably never know. But he may have been the one that was aware of the obscure rule which allowed the suspensions to be delayed.

With the Big Ten and the NCAA pressing the issue of having the guys play in the bowl, it put Gene Smith and JT in a tough spot. Rob Oller has an artilce about why universities are reluctant to challenge the NCAA. Dispatch.Oller

Although tOSU's behavior in this situation hasn't been ideal, I believe they've received far more negative publicity than they deserve. ESPN made it a major story for about 5 days, and then when it finally died down yesterday, the Petrino brothers connection triggered Spielman going into 'suspension speculation' mode, which unfortunately placed the spotlight on how Tressel will handle the playing time for the 5 guys in the Sugar Bowl.
 
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Steve19;1843281; said:
There is an alternative viewpoint that seems much more plausible. Here is the essence of the article that you cite:

This suggests a different and more likely scenario. Ohio State notified the NCAA about the issue that had arisen and its internal deliberations about suspensions. The NCAA responded tentatively, citing the precedent for five-game suspensions. Ohio State decided to start the suspension immediately but appeal its duration. Ohio State notified the NCAA and the Sugar Bowl of its intention and all hell broke loose.

On hearing the news, Hoolahan and the Sugar Bowl people went ballistic. You can imagine the telephone call when Hollahan told Ohio State that suspending the players would cost the Sugar Bowl millions in advertising revenues for years to come. Consequently, Hoolahan then made it clear that faithfulness to "Midwestern values" would have a price that Ohio State and the Big Ten could not afford to pay.

Do you really think that this conversation happened in the PR speak of that article? Do you really think that Hoolahan has made his involvement public out of altruism?

When Hoolahan mentions deaf ears, he more likely means that Ohio State understood the implications of the threats he made, not that he found willing co-conspirators. It is clear that Ohio State tried to assert the argument that it had to be faithful to the values that Ohio State and its constituency endorse. Hoolahan makes it very clear that his job was to protect the interests of the Sugar Bowl and he could care less if that offended anyone's sensibilities. And why should he, especially when nobody broke the law and the loss of millions against the chump change the player's received seemed too high a price for the Sugar Bowl to pay?

Anyone who has worked at this level knows what that conversation was like. No doubt, Hoolahan made it very clear to the Big Ten and Ohio State that, if they did not help him lobby the NCAA to lift the suspensions for the bowl game, Ohio State could be sure that the Sugar Bowl would be doing everything in their power to avoid hosting a Big Ten team in the future, and to do whatever they could to exclude Ohio State and the Big Ten teams from considerations for at-large berths.

It sounds very much like Ohio State tried very hard to stand for doing what it thought was right but then found the BCS, Sugar Bowl, NCAA, and the Big Ten making very explicit promises if they were faithful to their "Midwestern values" would have a price that Ohio State and the Big Ten did not want to pay.

Now, I know that some posters here would be saying, "Fine. Then we pay that price."

Sure, that sounds great now, but what about a couple of years down the road, when Ohio State teams that qualify for an at-large BCS berth are playing in the Liberty Bowl?

I am of the opinion that Ohio State did everything that it could to enforce an immediate suspension before finally deciding that the price was too high to continue.

And Hoolahan probably* ranted on about how Ohio State, the Big Ten, and the NCAA knew about the investigation but did not disclose it to the Sugar Bowl and had they known about it they would have chosen a different team.... and maybe some more about damages, lawyers, guns and money...

*Provided Steve's scenario is accurate.... and I do tend to think it is.

It is what it is right now, and given this likely scenario, I wouldn't be surprised to see the suspensions reduced later on.

If you think about it... you have a scenario here which might push more Presidents toward a playoff so they are less beholden to this kind of issue... Ohio State would be seeded regardless of who plays... same with Auburn, if you lose, it's your own damned problem.
 
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AKAKBUCK;1843297; said:
And Hoolahan probably* ranted on about how Ohio State, the Big Ten, and the NCAA knew about the investigation but did not disclose it to the Sugar Bowl and had they known about it they would have chosen a different team.... and maybe some more about damages, lawyers, guns and money...

*Provided Steve's scenario is accurate.... and I do tend to think it is.

It is what it is right now, and given this likely scenario, I wouldn't be surprised to see the suspensions reduced later on.

If you think about it... you have a scenario here which might push more Presidents toward a playoff so they are less beholden to this kind of issue... Ohio State would be seeded regardless of who plays... same with Auburn, if you lose, it's your own damned problem.

tOSU has said they were notified of the stuff being found at the tattoo parlor on December 7th, which was a couple days after the bowl bids went out. Assuming that's true, any such rant would be baseless, but it may not have stopped him from ranting.
 
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BB73;1843302; said:
tOSU has said they were notified of the stuff being found at the tattoo parlor on December 7th, which was a couple days after the bowl bids went out. Assuming that's true, any such rant would be baseless, but it may not have stopped him from ranting.

Ok, leave out disclose.. but, he still could have said, "If I knew what I know now" and ranted... you know.

At any rate, your previous point about Delany fits right in to this whole thing... and of course, since we're talking about shared bowl revenues... eh, I never liked that system.
 
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Just heard on 97.1 that all 5 players have promised to Tressel and to teamates that they will return for their senior season. Jim Tressel then said that their return was a condition for allowing them to play in the Sugar Bowl. Basically, Tressel said you're going to take your punishment one way or another. This was from a part of Tressel's statement during today's press conference.

I've been back and forth over this issue, kind of staying away from boards until I knew how I felt about it. With this bit of info, I'm satisfied.
 
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Merih;1843318; said:
Just heard on 97.1 that all 5 players have promised to Tressel and to teamates that they will return for their senior season. Jim Tressel then said that their return was a condition for allowing them to play in the Sugar Bowl. Basically, Tressel said you're going to take your punishment one way or another. This was from a part of Tressel's statement during today's press conference.

I've been back and forth over this issue, kind of staying away from boards until I knew how I felt about it. With this bit of info, I'm satisfied.

Gotta love JT.
 
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Merih;1843318; said:
Just heard on 97.1 that all 5 players have promised to Tressel and to teamates that they will return for their senior season. Jim Tressel then said that their return was a condition for allowing them to play in the Sugar Bowl. Basically, Tressel said you're going to take your punishment one way or another. This was from a part of Tressel's statement during today's press conference.

I've been back and forth over this issue, kind of staying away from boards until I knew how I felt about it. With this bit of info, I'm satisfied.

They could still bolt for the NFL regardless of what they told JT. I'm sure that would go over well with the Buckeye faithful.
 
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