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2017 tOSU Offense Discussion

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BuckeyeNation27 said:
The play calls. If they start calling better plays, and JT is left as the only thing holding the offense back, that'd be one thing. If I see one more gd option to the short side, I might jump out a window.
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I haven't felt masochistic enough to go back and watch, but I seem to recall a crazy amount of short sided nonsense to open that first quarter.

Worse than the short side option is the short side rollout (particularly given how often they do it). Yeah, we have a QB who isn't good at passing or seeing the full field, why not shrink the field and make the entire defense watch him do it from the start, taking away any surprise from any potential scrambles.
 
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That ball was a good throw by JT, only his man could catch it. I never said JT has never made one good throw. But at the same time, that is a difficult catch for anyone that has tried to make that catch before. Maybe you have and it was easy for you?

Jwins, you and I have gone round and round about the Zone 6 in the past. I am calling BS. You blame our receivers yet they play on Sundays. If I recall, you made fun of me for saying Noah Brown would be an NFL receiver. Well you were dead ass wrong, he is on the Dallas Cowboys roster as the backup WR. Samuels was projected as a started barring injury. You blamed those guys last year. Now you are blaming Campbell, destined for the NFL, Hill, destined for the NFL, and the rest of the group that will also have NFl guys, Baugh, destined for the NFL.

JT is not making the throws. Period. The Oline can't block them all damn day, and yes every now and then a defensive player is going to make a play and make a sack, we do face NFL talent on opposing teams who are going to make plays at times.

I just can't believe anyone can watch the past 2 and a half years and not see how defenses have dared JT to beat us now and he can't do it. Could there be some scheme changes, sure, but JT still is going to miss open guys, throw it late, and throw it behind guys, and not have the arm strength to complete the tough ones.
 
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Hstead said:
That ball was a good throw by JT, only his man could catch it. I never said JT has never made one good throw. But at the same time, that is a difficult catch for anyone that has tried to make that catch before. Maybe you have and it was easy for you?
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No I haven't, which is why I have no meaningful talent to offer inside the lines.
Jwins, you and I have gone round and round about the Zone 6 in the past. I am calling BS. You blame our receivers yet they play on Sundays. If I recall, you made fun of me for saying Noah Brown would be an NFL receiver. Well you were dead ass wrong, he is on the Dallas Cowboys roster as the backup WR. Samuels was projected as a started barring injury. You blamed those guys last year. Now you are blaming Campbell, destined for the NFL, Hill, destined for the NFL, and the rest of the group that will also have NFl guys, Baugh, destined for the NFL.
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Since you're obsessed with patting yourself on the back, I decided to go find that conversation:
https://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/threads/2017-tosu-offense-discussion.647710/page-4#post-2867656

I mocked you for resuming the hype train for undraftable Corey Smith, particularly since you were citing mock drafts that predicted him not to be drafted. I didn't say a peep about Noah Brown.

Pretty common theme in our interactions about Zone6 apparently
That's because you're arguing with imaginary strawmen and not what people are saying.

Please find a post from me claiming that OSU had no talent at WR last year. I'd love to see that.
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Which finished with you admitting I didn't actually say those things. If you'd like to address what I actually said, I just got done talking about the wealth of NFL talent had before the current stretch, as well as how it should rebound with Mack/Victor/Grimes/Harris.

Campbell is destined for the NFL? Based on what? Please don't trot out the laughable mock drafts. World class athlete. Still very bad at catching the ball, which is a pretty important quality.
JT is not making the throws. Period. The Oline can't block them all damn day, and yes every now and then a defensive player is going to make a play and make a sack, we do face NFL talent on opposing teams who are going to make plays at times.

I just can't believe anyone can watch the past 2 and a half years and not see how defenses have dared JT to beat us now and he can't do it. Could there be some scheme changes, sure, but JT still is going to miss open guys, throw it late, and throw it behind guys, and not have the arm strength to complete the tough ones.
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Dare them? Like on the super productive rollouts and sprint outs?

Austin Mack and Bin Victor have brought in more contested passes than most of the other guys on scholarship combined, and Victor still needs a lot of work when it comes to fighting for the ball.
As I said in our last dust-up about Zone 6, Terry is better than others when it comes to fighting for the football but he's not a high level talent.
 
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Hstead said:
This was also run into the boundary. I am assuming ichigan LOVED it that we ran into the short side? I could find more I am sure, TDs into the boundary.
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and not every opponent has a wildly overrated gimmick that overruns plays and leaves wide open lanes to the end zone.

There's nothing wrong with playing chess. Doing so with the speed option and rollouts is not chess.

BTW, how many of those plays have you seen this year? Part of that is because alleged NFL talent Baugh and Zone 6 members do not block anywhere near as well as the unit a few years back.
 
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Cherry pick much? I was specifically talking about the whole unit which was getting the blame, I was not just talking about Corey. I cited that we have 2 guys ranked in the top 20 and 2 ranked in the next 70, which was not "weak". I didn't say Smith was getting drafted.

Here is what I said.

"Almost every Mock Draft has Noah ranked in the top 20 receivers and most in the top 15 in the draft, and they have Samuel in the top 10. Many have Corey Smith ranked in the top 40 as well and Wilson in the top 70. So we had 4 WRs that the draft experts have ranked in the top 70. That is not exactly weak. How many other B1G schools have two WRs ranked in the top 20 and 4 in the top 70? How many schools period regardless of conference have that kind of talent?

Granted Corey was injured most of the season and Wilson has never seemed to stay 100% healthy, but the two guys on the field most of the time, Samuel and Noah, are both perceived by the experts as being top 20 talented in the draft. That is not weak. And they both were on the field for the majority of the snaps this year."
 
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jwinslow said:
No I haven't, which is why I have no meaningful talent to offer inside the lines.
Since you're obsessed with patting yourself on the back, I decided to go find that conversation:
https://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/threads/2017-tosu-offense-discussion.647710/page-4#post-2867656

I mocked you for resuming the hype train for undraftable Corey Smith, particularly since you were citing mock drafts that predicted him not to be drafted. I didn't say a peep about Noah Brown.

Pretty common theme in our interactions about Zone6 apparentlyWhich finished with you admitting I didn't actually say those things. If you'd like to address what I actually said, I just got done talking about the wealth of NFL talent had before the current stretch, as well as how it should rebound with Mack/Victor/Grimes/Harris.

Campbell is destined for the NFL? Based on what? Please don't trot out the laughable mock drafts. World class athlete. Still very bad at catching the ball, which is a pretty important quality.
Dare them? Like on the super productive rollouts and sprint outs?

Austin Mack and Bin Victor have brought in more contested passes than most of the other guys on scholarship combined, and Victor still needs a lot of work when it comes to fighting for the ball.
As I said in our last dust-up about Zone 6, Terry is better than others when it comes to fighting for the football but he's not a high level talent.
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Talk about a strawman. Please show me one post where I referenced Corey getting drafted. You seriously need to reread that thread, I just did. I clearly said Corey would most likely be a FA. I said we had 2 guys that would get drafted, Samuel and Brown, and they did. No where did I say Corey was getting drafted, never have said that. You misread my posts evidently. It is all there to go read.
 
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Hstead said:
Cherry pick much? I was specifically talking about the whole unit which was getting the blame, I was not just talking about Corey. I cited that we have 2 guys ranked in the top 20 and 2 ranked in the next 70, which was not "weak". I didn't say Smith was getting drafted.

Here is what I said.

"Almost every Mock Draft has Noah ranked in the top 20 receivers and most in the top 15 in the draft, and they have Samuel in the top 10. Many have Corey Smith ranked in the top 40 as well and Wilson in the top 70. So we had 4 WRs that the draft experts have ranked in the top 70. That is not exactly weak. How many other B1G schools have two WRs ranked in the top 20 and 4 in the top 70? How many schools period regardless of conference have that kind of talent?

Granted Corey was injured most of the season and Wilson has never seemed to stay 100% healthy, but the two guys on the field most of the time, Samuel and Noah, are both perceived by the experts as being top 20 talented in the draft. That is not weak. And they both were on the field for the majority of the snaps this year."
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I'm aware of what you said, and tore it apart because your rankings predicted those two would be undraftable. Also, Noah Brown essentially went undrafted, so I'm not sure bringing that up argument is a strong look for you.

Since you still will not address what I'm actually saying, and are obsessed instead with foggy memories of yesteryear, let's try for the hundredth time:

The scheme holds everyone back and puts inconsistent players in consistently low percentage situations. For crying out loud, they've made JT hesitant to run. He's not that dynamic of a runner, so any extra hitch in his feet (let alone his arm) is going to cause major problems.

JT is a very inconsistent passer and now a hesitant runner. This really holds back the offense.

The WRs get open sometimes, but they do not run crisp, consistent routes and do not finish plays well when the ball gets to them. The talent level is significantly lower than the previous corps with C.Brown, Smith, Spencer, Thomas, Miller (and Samuel, though he was more of an athlete). I'd love to have Noah Brown on this team, but he'd be on the bottom end of that spectrum near Spencer.

The next wave of talent at WR is very promising with Mack, Victor, Grimes and Harris. Austin was a huge pickup because he was a divergence from the undersized athletes that OSU was loading up on for a few years. Now with the past two classes, he's actually the smallest of that foursome by a large margin.

The TE position is also way behind what it was a few years ago. In the trilogy, they had two NFL studs to batter opposing teams and they could lean on them in their power spread, or sub them out interchangeably. Baugh can run around okay in shorts but he's not close to those two as a prospect, and the depth behind them does not exist yet. It may in time, but for now they can't run two TE sets.
 
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jwinslow said:
I'm aware of what you said, and tore it apart because your rankings predicted those two would be undraftable. Also, Noah Brown essentially went undrafted, so I'm not sure bringing that up argument is a strong look for you.

Why are you inferring that I thought Corey and Wilson would get drafted by listing their rankings when I clearly stated that they would not get drafted and would instead be free agents? I specifically said they would not get drafted, yet you want to act like because I listed their rankings I thought they would. You don't see your reading comprehension lacking there? I am not being a smartass but dead serious. Why do you insist on acting like I said Corey and Wilson would be drafter when I clearly said more than once they would not? I said Noah Brown was an NFL caliber receiver and he is I don't give a rats ass that he went in the 7th round, his talent level is good enough to make the Cowboys roster, which I said.

Since you still will not address what I'm actually saying, and are obsessed instead with foggy memories of yesteryear, let's try for the hundredth time:

The scheme holds everyone back and puts inconsistent players in consistently low percentage situations. For crying out loud, they've made JT hesitant to run. He's not that dynamic of a runner, so any extra hitch in his feet (let alone his arm) is going to cause major problems.

JT is a very inconsistent passer and now a hesitant runner. This really holds back the offense.

I am saying something very similar. JT is hesitant, a poor thrower, and is lacking confidence now. So why should we leave him in?

The WRs get open sometimes, but they do not run crisp, consistent routes and do not finish plays well when the ball gets to them. The talent level is significantly lower than the previous corps with C.Brown, Smith, Spencer, Thomas, Miller (and Samuel, though he was more of an athlete). I'd love to have Noah Brown on this team, but he'd be on the bottom end of that spectrum near Spencer.

I disagree, 4 of our 6 receivers in the rotation will play on Sundays. You can disagree. I was right last time despite you reading what I said incorrectly. Throw in Baugh and we will have 5 of 7.

The next wave of talent at WR is very promising with Mack, Victor, Grimes and Harris. Austin was a huge pickup because he was a divergence from the undersized athletes that OSU was loading up on for a few years. Now with the past two classes, he's actually the smallest of that foursome by a large margin.

Victor and Mack on the field a TON. Receivers are getting open. JT doesn't let guys catch it on the run often enough.

The TE position is also way behind what it was a few years ago. In the trilogy, they had two NFL studs to batter opposing teams and they could lean on them in their power spread, or sub them out interchangeably. Baugh can run around okay in shorts but he's not close to those two as a prospect, and the depth behind them does not exist yet. It may in time, but for now they can't run two TE sets.
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Hstead said:
Why are you inferring that I thought Corey and Wilson would get drafted by listing their rankings when I clearly stated that they would not get drafted and would instead be free agents? I specifically said they would not get drafted, yet you want to act like because I listed their rankings I thought they would. You don't see your reading comprehension lacking there? I am not being a smartass but dead serious. Why do you insist on acting like I said Corey and Wilson would be drafter when I clearly said more than once they would not? I said Noah Brown was an NFL caliber receiver and he is I don't give a rats ass that he went in the 7th round, his talent level is good enough to make the Cowboys roster, which I said.
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You were inferring that OSU was loaded with talent at WR. Well, no, they weren't, and the NFL bore that out. (disclaimer: they have way more talent than the production we're seeing, though)

They had a solid possession guy in N.Brown with great hands and that was essentially it. He's battling with Spencer for the bottom spot among WR picks under meyer, but that's a pretty good group, and we'll see how he looks with an actual passing game.

They had a bunch of athletes that weren't very consistent WRs. Corey Smith epitomized the previous downturn in WR recruiting. Undersized speed merchant that is easily disrupted by a physical DB. Same with James Clark. Same with Parris Campbell (bigger but even more inconsistent).

Dontre fought for the ball better than all of those inconsistent WRs mentioned above (after Noah), but was also smaller than all of them. He was definitely more of a slotback than a WR.



Now how talented is this group? The veterans are pretty average to below average by OSU standards. Overall? That's a more complicated question, because the youth of this group includes two talented guys in Mack and Victor who aren't quite there yet. It also includes an undersized, pure WR in KJ Hill that gets utilized poorly. I really disagree that Campbell is a major talent when talking about the NFL but conversely we haven't seen Grimes or Harris yet.


KJ Hill is a good example of there being truth inbetween our arguments. I think a better QB and better scheme would set him loose for a pretty good season. I think an average but not bad WR like Terry McLaurin would do much better too. I don't think a better scheme would change who Parris Campbell is, but it would get him the ball in simpler ways. I don't think any scheme would have made Corey Smith or James Clark effective.
 
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Well in my opinion, having 2 receivers make NFL rosters is pretty damn good. How many schools have 2 receivers make NFL rosters? What is your definition of good, 3? Seriously? You still want to argue that we didn't have much talent in Zone 6 even though 2 were deemed NFL roster worthy? We just are not going to agree on that then.

Not to mention you did not address where I specifically said Corey would be a FA and would not get drafted yet you misread what I posted and made it your strawman.
 
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Hstead said:
As for short sided plays, anyone that knows anything about football understands why they are called. The defense doesn't exactly line up perfectly symmetrical you know. Talking about taking what they give us?
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It has worked one time in the last 3 years. Apparently the defense isn't giving it to us, or we just plain suck at running them. Either way, rip that page out of the playbook and burn it.

edit: this was posted before I saw the next page where you had the Brooklyn Dagger. that play wasn't a speed option.....which is what I'm talking about. We ran it in that same game and it miraculously worked. That's the only time I can ever remember it working.
 
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