Too bad this guy wasn't on that Pitt team:
Sorry, I missed this earlier. May wasn't on that team that Ohio State throttled. But it is clear, even today, that they were on more than his mind.
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- Thread starter ScriptOhio
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Sorry, I missed this earlier. May wasn't on that team that Ohio State throttled. But it is clear, even today, that they were on more than his mind.
ExpatAkronite
Cascadia Subduction Zone
Yet many are impressed by Burrow when he gets in--who is coached by Beck...I'm not saying Beck is or isn't the problem but I don't see Helfrich as a solution.
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If you only think that recruiting is tweeting kids and telling them what they want to hear about championships and going pro, then you obviously don't follow recruiting much....
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HS stats mean absolutely nothing in college. There are a number of guys that have made their way to OSU with great HS stats, and have done little at the collegiate level(Zwick, Saine, Dunn, Rod Smith, etc)
I would say that Beck has still helped with Joe in terms of eluding a pass rush and reading defenses, something he rarely has to do at the HS level.
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Hstead
Legend
How do you think coaches evaluate players then? High school matters, their level of competition matters, their arm strength matters, their fundamentals matter, it all matters. Did you watch Joe in high school? You really think he didn't have to read defenses? You really think having a father that has played DB at a very high level and has been a DB coach at a high level never coached his son on reading a secondary? Joe had excellent skills coming out of high school. I have seen several of his full games. He is elusive with his legs and reads a defensive secondary at a very high level. I am one that is not surprised he has done well at OSU and believe he will do very well when given his chance.
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Poe McKnoe
Head Coach
Joe Burrow also has not faced anything resembling a strong FCS defense. I agree he's had a high accuracy percentage (not necessary completion), but he's seen limited pressure, and the best defense he's seen is the second half of a blowout at home against Nebraska. I like what he's done, but hopefully it extrapolates when the competition improves. Decisiveness is a funny thing when bad things happen.
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Read what @Poe McKnoe said...
It all matters to a point. And no I don't think he had to read defenses with the same complexity as in D1 colleges. I think his father has coached him some, but his father can't play for him at OSU. I remember at certain QB from CA with great bloodlines, and went to a major D1 program, and he did little to nothing in college. The kid is Nick Montana, who has a legendary HOFer father, and went to Washington. He was also pretty elusive and I'm sure had help from his father, it meant nothing. I'm not saying that Burrow will have the same path, but you can't just go by what a kid has done in HS, because he has A LOT more to learn once he hits a college campus.
Joe hasn't done much of anything yet to prove what he can do, and he needs to worry about the young bull Dwayne Haskins, who also will get in work with Beck as well. Both of them can show how Beck develops QBs.
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Hstead
Legend
You are totally missing my point. I played D1 football, I know exactly first hand what it takes to transition from high school to college. You also disagreed with me that Nick Bosa would play as a true frosh based on your same flawed idea that the college game is so different. When you play against the competition that Nick did in high school and you are a physical specimen that Nick is, it isn't that hard to play in your first year just as he has shown.
Back to my point, Beck is not going to be nearly as responsible for Joe's or Haskins for that matter fundamentals. Both of those guys came to OSU with very very good coaching beforehand. What will be very telling is if either of those guys regress.
What we do know, is we had a NFL caliber QB in Cardale that regressed in one year from Beck's tutelage. So much that he was replaced as a started, yet he has the skills to be a NFL backup and may play one day. Then we have watched Cardale's replacement, JT, make the same mistakes Cardale made. JT has not progressed. I don't care what the numbers guys are putting up comparing years are, it is plain to see that JT is not making the throws he needs to make, is not seeing the field well, is not throwing anyone open, holds the ball too long, and on and on. The same problems Cardale had.
I doubt very seriously Joe is going to have the same issues as we seen with the others since we have seen him on the field so far in mop up duty get the ball out much sooner. And it isn't going to be because Beck suddenly taught Joe how to read a defense. Joe has been coached well for years like I said.
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Oh God, not the "I played college football so I know so much" argument
...I don't remember saying that Bosa wouldn't play, but that he wouldn't start(if I can honestly remember, and he didn't)
Cardale regressed because DCs had actual film on him to break down from Wisky to Oregon, and knew his tendencies. Not to mention, that admittedly Cardale didn't fit our offense! Urban admitted as such when he tried to stop running the read option(his bread and butter) in order to fit Cardale into the offense, and it didn't work so he had to be benched. That had nothing to do with Beck! JT has regressed for mainly two reasons: O line play, and an inability for our WRs to get open or catch the ball consistently. Yet again, none of these factors have anything to do with Beck.
Joe can just as easily have the same problems if our O line play doesn't get better, and if the WRs are unable to get free and hold on to the ball. All of this has been talked about throughout the entire season. You can watch the games since Wisky and see that Prince is having a major problem with the right side and that as the season progressed, JT got more and more nervous regarding him and his side of the ball. The commentators for the scUM even said that JT walked up to Prince on multiple drives and literally had to keep asking him "are you alright", that's spoken like a QB/leader who isn't sure of his protection, which in turn would cause him to hold on to the ball longer worrying about said protection, and also not able to see the field as well, and so on. JT played in one of the biggest divisions in TX, Cardale and Braxton both played in 2 of the bigger divisions in OH, Burrow played in a decent sized division in OH, but I can guarantee he probably didn't see the level of competition of the previous 3(or even Haskins or Martell for that matter) on a weekly basis. Joe has a father who coached, but let's not make it seem like he was his primary coach, because I'm sure he had to do some coaching of his own for his team. QBs coaches in college teach a lot more info than their HS counterparts because the game is played at a different speed, and I'm sure watching HS film wouldn't be the same way to prepare for college
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Hstead
Legend
No, I am just not going to have you explain to me what the difference from high school to college is. I believe I have a better understanding of that topic than you? Maybe you played too? Did you play high school? Either way, please do explain it to me. And yes, if you want I can go back and dig up the posts opf you arguing with me and Mili about how much playing time Nick would get. I am sure he remembers too. Nick might not get the first snap of the game, but he gets at least as many as the other guys and draws more doubles than any other DLman we have. That speaks volumes. Yet you went on and on about how he couldn't play as a frosh and how there is no comparison between his high school games etc. The exact same BS.
I watch the games live. We have WRs running wide ass open every game that you can't see on TV. To claim the WRs can't get open is horse shit. We have several receivers that will play on Sundays, just like last years group when I heard the same bullshit excuse. That entire group is playing on Sundays, 4 of them. A ton of the sacks are on JT. You can't expect the Oline to block for longer than 3 seconds, that is not the standard. Anything past 3 seconds is a bonus. JT holds it past 5 at times. Cardale did the same thing. The ball did not come out on time.
If you think Joe's dad hasn't coached him then I am not sure how to explain that. Sure Joe didn't play college defenses in high school, but that has nothing to do with reading a defense. You obviously have little understanding of how a QB reads a defense. There are pre-snap reads and post snap. If you think a college DB coach hasn't taught his kid a TON about disguising coverages etc then again I am not sure how to explain it. It may happen faster in college, but reading a defense is reading a defense. Most often once you know the coverage (pre-snap and quickly post snap) you are reading 1 guy. If that one guy makes one step BANG the ball is out. It isn't rocket science. Cardale is learning how to do that at the pro level. JT hasn't been good at it, neither was Cardale last year.
My cousin, played d1, and I were talking about it yesterday. Our respective QB coaches at our schools both stood in the pocket during practice, often with a stop watch or someone else counting to 3, and they would scream when the ball needed to be gone. Maybe Beck is doing that. I hope so. But we aren't seeing it in the games. Spielman, who I regard as knowing as much football if not more than anyone on TV or radio, spoke at length about it last year. The ball does not come out on time, the execution sucks, and it goes on the QB. Just as Spielman said it did. The QB knows the route that is being run and the ball needs to be in the air when before he even makes his break. We never see that happen.
Watch Tom Brady. He doesn't even need an Oline half the time and he makes guys that run 4.6 40s look like HOFers.
I watch the games live. We have WRs running wide ass open every game that you can't see on TV. To claim the WRs can't get open is horse shit. We have several receivers that will play on Sundays, just like last years group when I heard the same bullshit excuse. That entire group is playing on Sundays, 4 of them. A ton of the sacks are on JT. You can't expect the Oline to block for longer than 3 seconds, that is not the standard. Anything past 3 seconds is a bonus. JT holds it past 5 at times. Cardale did the same thing. The ball did not come out on time.
If you think Joe's dad hasn't coached him then I am not sure how to explain that. Sure Joe didn't play college defenses in high school, but that has nothing to do with reading a defense. You obviously have little understanding of how a QB reads a defense. There are pre-snap reads and post snap. If you think a college DB coach hasn't taught his kid a TON about disguising coverages etc then again I am not sure how to explain it. It may happen faster in college, but reading a defense is reading a defense. Most often once you know the coverage (pre-snap and quickly post snap) you are reading 1 guy. If that one guy makes one step BANG the ball is out. It isn't rocket science. Cardale is learning how to do that at the pro level. JT hasn't been good at it, neither was Cardale last year.
My cousin, played d1, and I were talking about it yesterday. Our respective QB coaches at our schools both stood in the pocket during practice, often with a stop watch or someone else counting to 3, and they would scream when the ball needed to be gone. Maybe Beck is doing that. I hope so. But we aren't seeing it in the games. Spielman, who I regard as knowing as much football if not more than anyone on TV or radio, spoke at length about it last year. The ball does not come out on time, the execution sucks, and it goes on the QB. Just as Spielman said it did. The QB knows the route that is being run and the ball needs to be in the air when before he even makes his break. We never see that happen.
Watch Tom Brady. He doesn't even need an Oline half the time and he makes guys that run 4.6 40s look like HOFers.
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Hstead
Legend
I went ahead and pulled some of your statements about Nick for the record. Same argument you used "frosh, yada yada, high school yada yada"
"The guy who beats out Nick is a guy who's already on the roster, I'm not sure who, but it's hard to believe a true frosh from Day 1 will start over players already in the system, and comfortable with the speed of the college game. That's great a HS coach has a quote about him, but he's a HS coach, college and high school are worlds apart. There's no problem with him being in the 2 deep as a frosh. But expecting a day 1 starter is a lot to ask for a D lineman who doesn't even yet have to use much advanced technique in HS, or even been part of a famous Coach Mick training session. No matter how much big bro can try and prepare him, it's not the same"
"There's always exceptions. Great for Joey, last I checked they're two different people. Many factors can go against true frosh coming in and starting. Pedigree means nothing, none of us know how hard he'll work when he comes on campus, or how fast he'll grasp the system, injuries, getting technique(hell no longer be playing HS OL). I'm just saying many many 5stars have come to college and had a rude awakening in their first year. I think Nick will play in the rotation, and maybe start by seasons end, MAYBE, I tend to place little faith in true frosh, no matter how highly rated they are or who their family is. I'll sit back and pleasently surprised if I'm wrong"
"Last we all checked, Nick hasn't done jack squat in college either, lol! At least Lewis and Holmes have actually played in college games and been apart of off season college training programs. Yet again, Joey has literally nothing to do with his brother, his accomplishments are his own, not his brothers. Our DEs were considered a strength last year as well as this years, and it starts with Bosa, but also the depth is a big reason. It wouldn't be surprising to see Bosa in the 2 deep, but a lot shouldn't be expected of a true frosh, no matter his ratings. Our DE depth is unproven, but there's still a lot of talent, Holmes, Hubbard and Lewis can be very good, don't get wrapped up in what a kids brother has done and expect the same."
"By my statements, I've said he COULD crack the 2 deep. But nice try. And going by Meyers coaching logic, none of those factors matter either."
"I don't get fans that put such lofty expectations on true frosh. The percentages are quite low for true frosh to make major impact, even ones with great bloodlines. The only comparison to Joey is their last name, IMO. They're not the same. I agree that the guys in the DE room aren't all established, but they've at least been in a college strength & conditioning program, dealt with collegiate nutrition, and being able to balance a football and school work load. College is a far different ball game than HS, I'm not saying that Joey hasn't prepared him, but college rosters are littered with former 5stars. I hope Nick balls out, but I in no way would expect him to be like his brother in year 1. I'd gladly be wrong, but I agree with @buchtelgrad04 that this is a pretty stacked DE room with a bunch of hungry young guys also looking to make a name for themselves. Joey didn't have close to the amount of DE talent when he came in"
Those were a few. I guess you are "pleasantly surprised"? Several of us expected Nick to perform just like he has. You didn't.
"The guy who beats out Nick is a guy who's already on the roster, I'm not sure who, but it's hard to believe a true frosh from Day 1 will start over players already in the system, and comfortable with the speed of the college game. That's great a HS coach has a quote about him, but he's a HS coach, college and high school are worlds apart. There's no problem with him being in the 2 deep as a frosh. But expecting a day 1 starter is a lot to ask for a D lineman who doesn't even yet have to use much advanced technique in HS, or even been part of a famous Coach Mick training session. No matter how much big bro can try and prepare him, it's not the same"
"There's always exceptions. Great for Joey, last I checked they're two different people. Many factors can go against true frosh coming in and starting. Pedigree means nothing, none of us know how hard he'll work when he comes on campus, or how fast he'll grasp the system, injuries, getting technique(hell no longer be playing HS OL). I'm just saying many many 5stars have come to college and had a rude awakening in their first year. I think Nick will play in the rotation, and maybe start by seasons end, MAYBE, I tend to place little faith in true frosh, no matter how highly rated they are or who their family is. I'll sit back and pleasently surprised if I'm wrong"
"Last we all checked, Nick hasn't done jack squat in college either, lol! At least Lewis and Holmes have actually played in college games and been apart of off season college training programs. Yet again, Joey has literally nothing to do with his brother, his accomplishments are his own, not his brothers. Our DEs were considered a strength last year as well as this years, and it starts with Bosa, but also the depth is a big reason. It wouldn't be surprising to see Bosa in the 2 deep, but a lot shouldn't be expected of a true frosh, no matter his ratings. Our DE depth is unproven, but there's still a lot of talent, Holmes, Hubbard and Lewis can be very good, don't get wrapped up in what a kids brother has done and expect the same."
"By my statements, I've said he COULD crack the 2 deep. But nice try. And going by Meyers coaching logic, none of those factors matter either."
"I don't get fans that put such lofty expectations on true frosh. The percentages are quite low for true frosh to make major impact, even ones with great bloodlines. The only comparison to Joey is their last name, IMO. They're not the same. I agree that the guys in the DE room aren't all established, but they've at least been in a college strength & conditioning program, dealt with collegiate nutrition, and being able to balance a football and school work load. College is a far different ball game than HS, I'm not saying that Joey hasn't prepared him, but college rosters are littered with former 5stars. I hope Nick balls out, but I in no way would expect him to be like his brother in year 1. I'd gladly be wrong, but I agree with @buchtelgrad04 that this is a pretty stacked DE room with a bunch of hungry young guys also looking to make a name for themselves. Joey didn't have close to the amount of DE talent when he came in"
Those were a few. I guess you are "pleasantly surprised"? Several of us expected Nick to perform just like he has. You didn't.
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