2010 TSUN arguments & shenanigans (in-season)

[BuckeyeNation27]

Um, I thought you said that we have seven recognized national championships ... you know, those things that don't exist. Your bizarro world truly is bizarre.




As for you, if you're going to take the time to do the research, at least do it correctly. Go to the NCAA website ... follow the little LINK that I have given you four times now ... scroll down through the list of national championships and count them up ... if your math skills are a little weak, then I'll do the counting for you ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... 5 ... 6 ... 7 ... 8 ... 9 ... there we go, boys and girls ... Michigan has nine recognized national championships, specifically:

1901: HAF, NCF
1902: HAF, NCF
1903: NCF
1904: NCF
1918: NCF
1923: NCF
1933: HAF, NCF, CFRA
1948: AP
1997: AP, FWAA, NFF

The NCAA recognizes NCF (National Championship Foundation) titles prior to 1936; they also recognize HAF (Helms Athletic Foundation) and CFRA (College Football Researchers Association) titles from the same period. That's why Michigan's NCF titles from 1903, 1904, 1918, and 1923 count as titles recognized by the NCAA. So, just add those four national championships to the five that you already found on your own, and you too will come up with a grand total of nine. Pretty simple, eh?

Now back to the regularly scheduled Michigan bashing....

:scum4:

What part of my research did you fail to understand? The part where I showed which NCs actually count as NCs, or the part where I showed you whichs NCs don't count as NCs? The NCAA doesn't keep track of college football national champions, so a link from them is as meaningless as some of these claimed NCs. There are certain institutions that were actually recognized as the ones who decided who actually won the NC. Some times those institutions awarded their prize to Michigan. Some times they did not.

I showed you exactly when they did and when they didn't. But maybe if you show me that NCAA link one more time the numbers will change.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I'd say the very fact that the NCAA has a link tracking Championships sorta undercuts your assertion that the NCAA doesn't track Championships.

 

[MightbeaBuck]

Is this worth arguing about? Will it make Michigan suck less? or will Michigan suck more? For most of us, the amount of suckage doesn't matter, because Michigan just plain sucks!

...Michigan has nine recognized national championships, specifically:

1901: HAF, NCF
1902: HAF, NCF
1903: NCF
1904: NCF
1918: NCF
1923: NCF
1933: HAF, NCF, CFRA
1948: AP
1997: AP, FWAA, NFF

The NCAA recognizes NCF (National Championship Foundation) titles prior to 1936; they also recognize HAF (Helms Athletic Foundation) and CFRA (College Football Researchers Association) titles from the same period. That's why Michigan's NCF titles from 1903, 1904, 1918, and 1923 count as titles recognized by the NCAA. So, just add those four national championships to the five that you already found on your own, and you too will come up with a grand total of nine.

Here's something I posted from another thread http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...n-sat-oct-16-7-00-et-espn-96.html#post1796612

Don't know if you're off base here, because it depends on who you use as the selector for a MNC.
Michigan's MNC's:
Year . Record . Bowl Win . Selector(s)
1901 . 11-0-0 ... Rose ... Helms, Holgate, & NCF
1902 . 11-0-0 .............. Helms, Billingsley, Holgate, Parke H. Davis, & NCF
1903 . 11-0-1 .............. Billingsley & NCF
1904 . 10-0-0 .............. Billingsley & NCF
1918 .. 5-0-0 .............. Billingsley & NCF
1923 .. 8-0-0 .............. Billingsley & NCF
1932 .. 8-0-0 .............. Dickinson & Parke H. Davis
1933 .. 7-0-1 .............. Billingsley, Boand, Dickinson, Helms, Holgate, CFRA, NCF, Parke H. Davis, & Poling
1947 . 11-0-0 ... Rose ... Berryman, Billingsley, Boand, DeVold, Dunkel, CFRA, Helms, Houlgate, Litkenhous, NCF, Poling & Sagarin
1948 .. 9-0-0 .............. Associated Press
1997 . 12-0-0 ............. Associated Press (and a host of lesser ones)

Michigan fans can claim up to eleven. Non-Michigan fans usually don't give all of these to them. In many years there were other schools claiming the title also. For example, in 1918, the Pittsburgh Panthers had a legitimate claim on the title. The two years you were talking of are probably the AP issued MNC's in '48 and '97. In 1997 about a half dozen or so organizations selected Michigan as the MNC. But also in 1997, more than two dozen organizations selected Nebraska as the MNC.



...Interesting in that LJB's list doesn't give a MNC for a year scUM won a Rose Bowl.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

I'd say the very fact that the NCAA has a link tracking Championships sorta undercuts your assertion that the NCAA doesn't track Championships.

They keep track of every time a podunk newstand "awards" a title. Unless you're Penn State, you shouldn't count those.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

What part of my research did you fail to understand? The part where I showed which NCs actually count as NCs, or the part where I showed you whichs NCs don't count as NCs? The NCAA doesn't keep track of college football national champions, so a link from them is as meaningless as some of these claimed NCs. There are certain institutions that were actually recognized as the ones who decided who actually won the NC. Some times those institutions awarded their prize to Michigan. Some times they did not.

I showed you exactly when they did and when they didn't. But maybe if you show me that NCAA link one more time the numbers will change.

They keep track of every time a podunk newstand "awards" a title. Unless you're Penn State, you shouldn't count those.

I understood your research perfectly, and that is why I was so easily able to determine that it was wrong.

The NCAA does "keep track of college football national championships" and their list does not include a bunch of "podunk newstand" titles. You are more than welcome to visit their website to determine which titles they recognize ... or if you don't trust the NCAA and you don't trust me, then you can always visit the College Football Data Warehouse, which gives and excellent breakdown of which national championships "count". I know that you won't go there, because you have your own preconceived notions on the topic, but for anyone else who might want to learn about the subject instead of wallowing in their own ignorance, then here's the link: College Football Data Warehouse Recognized National Championships.

I must commend you on your ability to persist in your beliefs when the facts are so obviously against you.

 

[AKAK]

Just to be clear....

Michigan sucks.

 

[goblue7]

If the rumors are true about Harbaugh coming to tsun as early as next week, I could see Zettel ending up in AA when all is said and done.

I agree with this.

We might lose a few (Dee Hart and Dallas Crawford in particular) but I think if Harbaugh is announced we'll gain a few, and if Zettel really was a life-long Michigan fan I got to think that Harbaugh would be able to work his magic on him.

I think with Harbaugh at the helm selling Michigan, we won't lose very many life-long Michigan fans.

I could be wearing maize and blue colored glasses, but I have to think that Harbaugh could sell Michigan to 17-18 year old kids better than Rich ever did. Especially kids who grew up loving Michigan, because Harbaugh went here, he played here, and to me he comes across as a much more personable/likeable guy than Rodriguez.

I could also see Harbaugh making runs at DeAnthony Arnett, Trey DePriest, Lawrence Thomas, and a few others. Don't know how successful he'd actually be in getting his foot in the door and actually flipping them, but I could see him definitely going after them.

 

[jwinslow]

Beyer and countess will be wolverines regardless of a change.

The choice is harbaugh and vaughters (and maybe the other 4 star lb as well as the dt verbals ) or rr and crawford (maybe with dee too)


Hopkins is at worst a solid back, and probably more in a downhill rushing attack. Smith is at worst a good change of pace as well as third down back. Cox benefits by switching offenses as well


Meanwhile um is stuck with wvu level talent at lb if they choose rr and dee. Even worse, they are stuck with wvu level coaching and development for that position.

 

[heisman]

Beyer and countess will be wolverines regardless of a change.

The choice is harbaugh and vaughters (and maybe the other 4 star lb as well as the dt verbals ) or rr and crawford (maybe with dee too)

J,

Are you inferring that this is tsun's choice to make? I'm guessing quite the opposite. Captain Comeback is driving this bus.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

I understood your research perfectly, and that is why I was so easily able to determine that it was wrong.

The NCAA does "keep track of college football national championships" and their list does not include a bunch of "podunk newstand" titles. You are more than welcome to visit their website to determine which titles they recognize ... or if you don't trust the NCAA and you don't trust me, then you can always visit the College Football Data Warehouse, which gives and excellent breakdown of which national championships "count". I know that you won't go there, because you have your own preconceived notions on the topic, but for anyone else who might want to learn about the subject instead of wallowing in their own ignorance, then here's the link: College Football Data Warehouse Recognized National Championships.

I must commend you on your ability to persist in your beliefs when the facts are so obviously against you.

The CFBDW used to be a good link. They actually kept track of REAL titles. Then out of the blue they started counting anything and everything instead of looking up when each institution was recognized as the one(s) who determined who was the champ. I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge that different entities were used at different times to decide who was the champion....much like I don't know why CFBDW stopped keeping real track of it.

The NCAA's link used to list even more than they do now. Ohio State had 14 at one point. But if I tried claiming all 14 then I would be called a moron, because not all of them were real. Kind of like this case with Michigan.

Weird how the sources you claim as gospel were once different than they are now. Here's the source I used....which details when each entity was the active decider of who actually won the title: http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/champions_national.html

These are the preeminent sources for the period during which they are listed.
1869-1882: National Championship Foundation
1883-1935: Helms Athletic Foundation (H)
1924-1940: The Dickinson System (D)
1936-Present: Associated Press (AP)
1958-1990: United Press International (UPI)
1991-1996: CNN/USA Today (Coaches)
1997-2004: ESPN/USA Today (Coaches)
2005-Present: USA Today (Coaches)
2005-Present: Harris Interactive
1998-Present: Champion listed was also BCS champ unless otherwise noted in parenthesis.

also of note from that link

*-1947 - Michigan is often credited with a 1947 title based on a No. 1 ranking in a post-Rose Bowl AP poll which the AP itself does not recognize as official, and is not recognized by the NCAA.

 

[goblue7]

Beyer and countess will be wolverines regardless of a change.

The choice is harbaugh and vaughters (and maybe the other 4 star lb as well as the dt verbals ) or rr and crawford (maybe with dee too)


Hopkins is at worst a solid back, and probably more in a downhill rushing attack. Smith is at worst a good change of pace as well as third down back. Cox benefits by switching offenses as well


Meanwhile um is stuck with wvu level talent at lb if they choose rr and dee. Even worse, they are stuck with wvu level coaching and development for that position.

Good observation jwinslow, but I disagree with you a little on that last part.

I think Demens is a solid MLB prospect with legit talent, and that with some real coaching in a defense run by say, Vic Fangio, that Demens could actually be a really good player. Same goes for JB Fitzgerald. Those are two pretty decent raw talents that a new coach would have to work with.

As far as the depth behind those guys? Well, I'd agree...WVU like talent with 200 pound converted safeties.

I am hoping the new coach moves Marvin Robinson to SS, because quite frankly I think that kid has a bright future there and he's A LOT more talented than Jordan Kovacs.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

blah blah blah

Question
According to the NCAA, how many national championships does Michigan have?

Solution
Step One: Click the LINK to the NCAA's website.
Step Two: Count the titles.

Hint
When trying to determine which titles are recognized by the NCAA, it is probably best to check the NCAA's own website and not CollegeFootballPoll.com, which is apparently some sort of gambling site, and thus is probably not the best place to find historical information.

Answer
Michigan has nine.

If you do possess suffient mental capacity to understand the above, then I truly feel sorry for you.

I am finished arguing about established facts.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

The best part about this argument is how you can stick your head in the sand while still being a dick about it.

The NCAA doesn't give out Championships, so I don't know why you're going based off the NCAA. Based on the people who actually decide who the champion is, Michigan has 5. The NCAA might keep a nice list of any entity that wants to give a school a title, but depending on the time period there are established entities that award the real title.....and Michigan has only won their title 5 times.

I can acknowledge that the National Championship Foundation thought Michigan was the best team in 1903...I don't know why you can't acknowledge that it doesn't mean squat since they stopped determining who the best team was in 1882.

By the way...CollegeFootballPoll.com isn't a gambling site. It's a site that collects data, same as CollegeFootballDataWarehouse.com.

 

[buck1973]

Weird how the sources you claim as gospel were once different than they are now. Here's the source I used....which details when each entity was the active decider of who actually won the title: http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/champions_national.html



also of note from that link

The NCAA might keep a nice list of any entity that wants to give a school a title, but depending on the time period there are established entities that award the real title.....and Michigan has only won their title 5 times.

I can acknowledge that the National Championship Foundation thought Michigan was the best team in 1903...I don't know why you can't acknowledge that it doesn't mean squat since they stopped determining who the best team was in 1882.

By the way...CollegeFootballPoll.com isn't a gambling site. It's a site that collects data, same as CollegeFootballDataWarehouse.com.

Before the Dickinson system in 1926, there were no "active deciders" awarding titles at the end of the season. Any titles awarded before that year are retroactive. (Dickinson retroactively awarded the 1924 & 1925 title in 1926).

The Helms Athletic Foundation was founded by Paul Helms in 1936. In 1941, Bill Schroeder, the managing director, retroactively picked the champions from 1883 to 1940.

The National Championship Foundation was founded by Mike Riter in 1981. They retroactively awarded titles from 1869 to 1980.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but you seem to be implying that Helms and NCF were awarding those early titles as the seasons played out and that, depending on the time period, one or the other was considered the "real" title. The truth is that there were no "real" titles from that period as they were all retroactively awarded.

The list you provided above does not show who decided the "real" champion for those years. It simply shows which entities the website owner/s decided to recognize. College Football Data Warehouse has a similar list and the NCAA yet another.

 

[Steve19]

Just to be clear....

Michigan sucks.

I don't know what these other guys are prattling on about, AKAK. But, what you say has the sound of truth to it. I can feel the vacuum at the tip of the African continent.