2009 TSUN arguments, shenanigans (not football)

[jwinslow]

If you have something to add to the BuckeyePlanet discussion about their recruits, then do so. But this is not the place to express your excitement or support in every thread about a Michigan verbal. That website is called RecruitingPlanet, our sister site.

The recruiting forum is very organized (kept on topic about one kid or topic), neat (no profanity), and buckeye-centric. Other fans are welcome to chime in with their insight into a recruitment or evaluation of a prospect, but it exists as a buckeye archive of news. Breaking down William Gholston's play is one thing, as he is still in play for OSU (even if 2nd to MSU), but players that aren't relevant to OSU should not be bumped above other prospects just to say 'yay'.

For instance, bumping the threads for Wilkins, Robinson, etc buries the updates on Alex Smith, Darrion Hall and Nick Montana. Many people do not naturally visit the 2010 forum and only see the most recent thread listed by itself.

 

[Buckeye86]

I'm not entirely sure if that means that DRod doesn't develop his OLine talent well enough to get them to the NFL. I think there's a decent argument that he simply tends to recruit smaller, less NFL-caliber linemen because that type of lineman is better for his offense. It doesn't really matter who the coach is, Henderson is getting to the NFL and at an early pick unless someone does something seriously wrong.

That being said, it wouldn't hurt him to join a team with more of a traditional O Line.

I see your point and raise you this, the absolute most important thing that a marquee left tackle does in the NFL is protect the quarterback's blind side, will Henderson (or anyone else) be developed through practice and game experience to do that in Michigan's new offensive system? I submit that they will not and that is a huge reason for a marquee left tackle not to go there

 

[DontHateOState]

Look at Rich's NFL lineman history. When you find it, let me know.

He's actually right, though. Plenty of teams run zone blocking schemes. The issue with Michigan is that Rick Trickett is no longer the OL coach for RR.

 

[jwinslow]

To take it one step further... I think that debating in favor of UM's blocking schemes would be a perfectly relevant discussion for the TSUN thread, provided it's civil. HailToMichigan debated everything under the blue sun and was quite stubborn, but he kept it above board.

note: this is for smalls, not the rest, who have been carrying on this debate here.

The biggest reason for this split was the frequency of these UM thread resurrections.

 

[3074326]

He's actually right, though. Plenty of teams run zone blocking schemes. The issue with Michigan is that Rick Trickett is no longer the OL coach for RR.

Yes, I am aware that zone-blocking is used in the NFL with success. But arguing that Rich's particular system is the same as NFL systems is flawed IMO. NFL systems use NFL-sized linemen, and as someone else pointed out in the thread, Rich's system utilizes smaller linemen. The techniques of zone-blocking are (possibly, probably) the same, but I don't see a highly-regarded potential NFL left tackle talent going to Michigan (under Rodriguez) to prepare himself for NFL LT duties.

 

[biggiesmalls]

the criticism is not that they don't run zone blocking schemes in the NFL, it is that Rich Rodriguez's scheme doesn't prepare lineman for the NFL,
exactly one lineman was drafted from West Virginia while Rodriguez was coaching there, that isn't even close to a history of successful development

There are only currently 19 players from West Virginia on NFL training camp rosters- some of them won't even make the final roster cuts.

NFL Football Players By College - W - National Football League - ESPN


West Virginia just doesn't produce very many NFL players. The state of West Virginia is one of the least populated and poorest states in the entire country.

 

[jwinslow]

West Virginia just doesn't produce very many NFL players. The state of West Virginia is one of the least populated and poorest states in the entire country.

No they didn't, and it's tough to produce NFLers from WVU. However, Nehlen did it at a lot higher rate.

Whether that translates to UM & Carr remains to be seen.

 

[3074326]

There are only currently 19 players from West Virginia on NFL training camp rosters- some of them won't even make the final roster cuts.

NFL Football Players By College - W - National Football League - ESPN


West Virginia just doesn't produce very many NFL players. The state of West Virginia is one of the least populated and poorest states in the entire country.

Do you not think that Rodriguez and his system had anything to do with the amount of NFL talent produced?

 

[biggiesmalls]

Do you not think that Rodriguez and his system had anything to do with the amount of NFL talent produced?

I think that NFL talent is NFL talent, regardless of what system or school they play at. Being able to play good in college vs. being able to play in the NFL is an entire different story.

I think Rich was able to recruit players that went under the radar and that fit his system well, but at the same time weren't exactly great athletes for their positions or didn't really project well to the NFL.

Players like Pac-Man Jones, Steve Slaton, Chris Henry, or Owen Schmidt make it to the NFL from any college in any system.

The problem for Rich imo, is that players like that are very few and far between at a school like WVU.

By the way, Pat White did become a 2nd round draft pick at QB under Rich Rodriguez, whereas had he gone to Alabama or LSU (his other two finalists) he's probably a CB or Free Safety.

 

[Buckeye86]

this:

West Virginia just doesn't produce very many NFL players.

has less than nothing to do with this:

state of West Virginia is one of the least populated and poorest states in the entire country.

unless there is some rule I don't know about that regulates the number of scholarship players on a team based on the size and prosperity of the state they play in

it's about the coaches, the players they recruit, and how well the players are developed (through the schemes they run and otherwise)... if Rodriguez's recruiting so far at Michigan is any indication, you can expect Michigan to start producing the same amount of NFL players as WVU has, but I am sure that will be due to the increasingly poor economic situation in the state

 

[biggiesmalls]

No they didn't, and it's tough to produce NFLers from WVU. However, Nehlen did it at a lot higher rate.

Whether that translates to UM & Carr remains to be seen.

Did Nehlen really do it at "a lot higher rate" though? It's not that I don't doubt you, I'm just really curious to see the numbers.

Nehlen was at WVU for 20 years though (compared to 7 for Rich) and he did run a Pro-Style system.

 

[jwinslow]

By the way, Pat White did become a 2nd round draft pick at QB under Rich Rodriguez, whereas had he gone to Alabama or LSU (his other two finalists) he's probably a CB or Free Safety.

Pat White was discovered by Rich and turned into a college star. He was not given the keys to dropback consistently until Stewart took over. In September 2008, it was easy to see why RR relied on Pat's feet instead of his arm, as Stewart's passing game focus had a pretty rough couple of games. But it paid off big time for him in the bowl game.

Without that passing game focus and the stellar offseason workouts, Pat White would not be a 2nd round QB.

Personally, I get why RR ran so often, even on 3rd & long. But there was a definite difference in how the two WVU coaches attacked.

 

[3074326]

I think that NFL talent is NFL talent, regardless of what system or school they play at. Being able to play good in college vs. being able to play in the NFL is an entire different story.

I think Rich was able to recruit players that went under the radar and that fit his system well, but at the same time weren't exactly great athletes for their positions or didn't really project well to the NFL.

Players like Pac-Man Jones, Steve Slaton, Chris Henry, or Owen Schmidt make it to the NFL from any college in any system.

The problem for Rich imo, is that players like that are very few and far between at a school like WVU.

By the way, Pat White did become a 2nd round draft pick at QB under Rich Rodriguez, whereas had he gone to Alabama or LSU (his other two finalists) he's probably a CB or Free Safety.

I pretty much agree with what you're saying about non-linemen. But, as jwins said, he's done it at a lesser rate than Nehlen. This decreased rate can only be attributed to a few things, and I'm not sure wealth or population are those things.

But, back to the original discussion, which was linemen. The post that you quoted and started this position player discussion was a post about linemen. Somehow we've managed to get away from that. Rodriguez's system is not favorable for linemen to get to the next level, and it's a little different with OL than position players.

 

[jwinslow]

Did Nehlen really do it at "a lot higher rate" though? It's not that I don't doubt you, I'm just really curious to see the numbers.

Nehlen was at WVU for 20 years though (compared to 7 for Rich) and he did run a Pro-Style system.

here's my post on that from awhile back:

Pros produced per year:
RR 1.0, Nehlen 2.7

He also produced a lot more first day picks.

WVU Draft HistoryScout shows zero OL alumni on roster for WVU.
All-American, Rimington award winner, went undrafted. Six other centers were drafted.
Well that was the case moving from Nehlen to RRod... see the link atop this post.

01-07 - RichRod - 7 draft picks, 1 first rnd, 2 first day. Biggest names: Pacman Jones, Chris Henry
80-00 - Nehlen - 57 draft picks, 4 first rnd, 21 first day. Biggest names: Marc Bulger, Jerry Porter, Jeff Hostetler

Nehlen produced 2.7 more draft picks per year.

The above link does not list 2007, but WVU had no one drafted last year.

I'll be merging this thread with that one shortly.

 

[biggiesmalls]

this:

has less than nothing to do with this:


unless there is some rule I don't know about that regulates the number of scholarship players on a team based on the size and prosperity of the state they play in

it's about the coaches, the players they recruit, and how well the players are developed (through the schemes they run and otherwise)... if Rodriguez's recruiting so far at Michigan is any indication, you can expect Michigan to start producing the same amount of NFL players as WVU has, but I am sure that will be due to the increasingly poor economic situation in the state

You cannot possibly be this dense can you?

Most schools recruit their talent from their own backyard.

The three biggest NFL talent producing states? You guessed it. California (199) , Florida (179) , and Texas (174). Oh, by the way, those also happen to be the first (California), second (Texas), and fourth (Florida) most populated states in the entire country.

How many NFL'ers hail from the state of West Virginia? A whopping FOUR.

And the point about West Virginia being a poor state has everything to do with this. The state of West Virginia doesn't have the population base or wealth to build 100,000 seat stadiums with state of the art practicing facilities for state sponsored Universities. That's a HUGE part of recruiting blue chip, NFL type talent high school kids. Most of them want to play for big-time programs with the best facilities at their disposal, and why would they not.

Links;

http://georgiasports.blogspot.com/2006/07/recruiting-top-states-for-producing.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population