2009 Heisman Trophy discussion

[stxbuck]

This is one of those admittedly rare years where everyone knew darn well that a DL-Suh-was clearly the best player in the country. Charles Woodson aside, the Heisman is never going to be given to a defensive player. If Ingram played at Stanford, and Gerhart at Bama', I think their stats would would pretty much switch-tougher SEC d vs. Pac 10. What is weird is that Ingram is the 3rd sophmore in a row to win the award-but I highly doubts he repeats next year-someone will put up gaudier stats.

 

[BuckeyeTillIDie]

but I highly doubts he repeats next year-someone will put up gaudier stats.

Gerhart had gaudier stats this year

 

[jlb1705]

Congrats to Ingram. Seems like a good kid, and I think he deserves the award. Gerhart had a good season too, but I can pick one of the two to start for my favorite team I'm taking Ingram. You can't go too wrong with either one though.

 

[TheIronColonel]

Exactly what I meant.. Pac 10< SEC..

Read through the ongoing threads about how oregon's defense isn't really that good and how OSU will beat them,because Oregon hasn't seen a defense like OSU all year long. Oregon is the best that the pac 10 has to offer this year..

There were 3 backs who had more rushing yards then Ingram.If the award was based on statistics alone..then yea he didn't deserve to win,but in that case Keenan and Clausen should have been there last night instead of Tebow and Mccoy.Ingram is the only SEC back in the top 10 in rushing yards (overall).

It was the closest heisman voting ever..It's not like Ingram won by a huge margin that would make it appear to be some travesty.

Best team+Big time player+Big time performances in crucial games= Win. Would I say the lack of a clear cut winner this year makes it more debatable? Absolutely.

The problem is that you've implicitly (well, rather explicitly, actually) assumed that SEC>all, despite the statistics that indicate the contrary. Ingram had a great game against Florida; on the other hand, he was also held under 100 yards 5 times this year. Outside of a huge game against Florida, I just can't see a compelling reason that he should have won over Gerhart (and certainly not over Suh). You're falling back on regional bias to justify it, and (theoretically) that shouldn't be a deciding factor in the decision.

 

[3074326]

I really wanted Suh to win, and would've voted 1-Suh 2-Gerhart 3-Ingram, but I can't help but be happy for Ingram. I don't know if I've been that happy for a kid since Troy, and it was comparable to that. Different situations though. Troy was just such a good representative for the university and seemed very humbled by it all. Ingram just seemed so damn overwhelmed that he didn't even know what to do. Great kid - I wish him well. He made a fan out of me.

I thought he was deserving enough for me not to have too much of a problem with it.

 

[powerlifter]

The problem is that you've implicitly (well, rather explicitly, actually) assumed that SEC>all, despite the statistics that indicate the contrary. Ingram had a great game against Florida; on the other hand, he was also held under 100 yards 5 times this year. Outside of a huge game against Florida, I just can't see a compelling reason that he should have won over Gerhart (and certainly not over Suh). You're falling back on regional bias to justify it, and (theoretically) that shouldn't be a deciding factor in the decision.

If you put Gerhart in bama and he does what he does..then he wins,but it didn't happen that way..Suh was deserving,but that's the heisman for you. There is a reason ingram has the heisman..and nobody was outright CHEATED..It was way to close to say anyone was screwed over badly.

As far as the SEC goes..I'd feel much better putting a c note on OSU versus Oregon,then OSU versus bama or florida. The teams overall are just better..That's not being biased..You can play with numbers all you want,but that doesn't change reality.

 

[jwinslow]

I think pac-10 defenses faced a lot tougher challenge at defending the run with Stafon, McKnight, Best, Rodgers, James.

Exactly what I meant.. Pac 10< SEC..

But when you throw out Alabama (since Ingram doesn't face them), their conference gets a LOT weaker.

Top-25 rush defenses: UF, ASU, Ari, Or SU. SEC 1 vs 3 P10
Top-40 rush defenses: Cal, Ore................. SEC 0 vs 2 P10
Top-50 rush defenses: UGA, USC, SCar...... SEC 2 vs 1 P10

Florida was the only "great" rush D they faced, and how many top RBs did UF actually face? Hardesty had a good day, Dixon did not, Arkansas had a lot of success.

There were 3 backs who had more rushing yards then Ingram.If the award was based on statistics alone..then yea he didn't deserve to win,but in that case Keenan and Clausen should have been there last night instead of Tebow and Mccoy.

Tebow didn't deserve to be there, and McCoy stunk up the joint against his only two tough opponents. What happened to your big+big+big formula down below?

It was the closest heisman voting ever..It's not like Ingram won by a huge margin that would make it appear to be some travesty.

Which would lend credence to my objection

Best team+Big time player+Big time performances in crucial games= Win.

He did not show up in their biggest regular season game, which happened two weeks ago. His backup, however, did show up big against Auburn, and dominated again a week later against Florida, which dilutes the value of Ingram's dominance imo.

 

[powerlifter]

The SEC as a whole is a better rushing conference,then the pac 10. Therefore,taking only rushing defensive stats can be somewhat misleading...

Top 25 Total Rushing Yards: Sec (5) Miss.St (#9) Florida (#10)Bama(#12)Auburn(#13)Kentucky(#21)
Pac 10 (2) Oregon (#6) Stanford (#11)

However,looking at total defense...

Top 25 Total Defense: SEC(5) Bama(#2),Florida (#4),South Carolina (#15),Tenny (#17),Mississippi(#24) Note: LSU(#28)GA(#30)
Pac (2) a-state(#12),zona (#22) Note:Oregon (#32)

Gerheart: 311 carries,1736 yards/26 td's YPC 5.58 1TD per 12 carries
Ingram: 249 carries,1542 yards/15 TD's YPC 6.19 1TD per 16.6 carries

Reverse Roles
Ingram@ 311 carries 1925 yards,19 TD's
Gerheart @ 249 carries 1389 yards,20 TD's

It's no secret that a top profile team with a heisman contender gets the edge in most cases.

Since 2000..What team could you compare stanford to here listed..

2008,Sam Bradford,Oklahoma
2007,Tim Tebow,Florida
2006,Troy Smith,Ohio State
2005,Reggie Bush,Southern California
2004,Matt Leinart,Southern California
2003,Jason White,Oklahoma
2002,Carson Palmer,Southern California
2001,Eric Crouch,Nebraska
2000,Chris Weinke,Florida State

People can tell themselves the heisman isn't a team award,but next year when a national championship caliber team yields another heisman winner..people will be saying the same thing.

 

[TheIronColonel]

As far as the rush offense vs rush defense, it's a chicken/egg argument. Given that the SEC plays an utterly shitty OOC lineup (whereas the PAC 10 doesn't), I'm less inclined to believe that the SEC rushes the ball that well and more inclined to believe that they simply don't have the defenses they've had the past few years. Last year or the year before, I'd agree that the SEC was clearly A#1. This year, not so much.

I also think it's remarkably cynical to say "well, it's OK that he won because it is in fact a team award". If it's really a team award, let's stop pussyfooting around and just call it that. Frankly, I'd rather just see them stop giving it altogether and save themselves the embarrassment; if this is the best they can do, why bother?

 

[powerlifter]

As far as the rush offense vs rush defense, it's a chicken/egg argument. Given that the SEC plays an utterly shitty OOC lineup (whereas the PAC 10 doesn't), I'm less inclined to believe that the SEC rushes the ball that well and more inclined to believe that they simply don't have the defenses they've had the past few years. Last year or the year before, I'd agree that the SEC was clearly A#1. This year, not so much.Maybe,but that's no different then the big 12 never has a defense argument..maybe they don't,but they sometimes have better offenses then what people give them credit for...Would you be willing to lay down your wallet top 2 pac 10 team teams versus top 2 Sec teams..doubtful

I also think it's remarkably cynical to say "well, it's OK that he won because it is in fact a team award". If it's really a team award, let's stop pussyfooting around and just call it that. Frankly, I'd rather just see them stop giving it altogether and save themselves the embarrassment; if this is the best they can do, why bother?

How many more times does a national championship contending team have to have a heisman winner before people in general,accept that? Toby had a great year,but it wasn't nothing that hasn't been done before or many times over..Suh had a great year and surged at a peak time for people to see his ability. A defensive player can only do so much in national media in comparison of scoring 4 td's in a game or throwing for 400+ yards. Suh was a huge kick in the nuts to Texas and Nebraska nearly pulled it off...but I think you have to have a dominate defensive player who at times may cross over to WR or at least KR/PR. That leaves 300lb lineman in a bind.

 

[jwinslow]

How many more times does a national championship contending team have to have a heisman winner before people in general,accept that?

Why does repetition excuse stupidity, let alone force us to accept it?

 

[TooTall]

How many more times does a national championship contending team have to have a heisman winner before people in general,accept that? Toby had a great year,but it wasn't nothing that hasn't been done before or many times over..

Which is the very reason this award is losing credibility... What does winning this award mean then? Now it's all about the best player from one of the Top 5 BCS teams... When it should be the nations most outstanding player. The PLAYER earns the award, not the TEAM. And that's a thing the media and everyone else has lost focus of.

 

[powerlifter]

Why does repetition excuse stupidity, let alone force us to accept it?

I guess if you learn to accept it..You'll be less stunned. This year...I don't really think anyone got the royal screw job some people feel gerhart got,but of course opinions will vary. It DEFINITELY can impact the voting too much though imo.

Which is the very reason this award is losing credibility... What does winning this award mean then? Now it's all about the best player from one of the Top 5 BCS teams... When it should be the nations most outstanding player. The PLAYER earns the award, not the TEAM. And that's a thing the media and everyone else has lost focus of.

Let me ask you this..At what point does winning matter at all? How is leadership factored into an equation? If a player wins does that make him a leader? If his team loses does that make him any less of a leader? Are they supposed to hand it out to the best stat leader..If so then they wouldn't need voting at all..Case Keenum's stat blow away everyone elses..I'd venture to say at any position..Does he deserve it just because he has the stats..Do coaches start to intentionally juice up players stats to make it a computer based competition for the heisman?

 

[Mike80]

I guess if you learn to accept it..You'll be less stunned.

Yeah that'll happen about the same time you stop making excuses for roidheads...

Let me ask you this..At what point does winning matter at all? How is leadership factored into an equation? If a player wins does that make him a leader? If his team loses does that make him any less of a leader? Are they supposed to hand it out to the best stat leader..If so then they wouldn't need voting at all..Case Keenum's stat blow away everyone elses..I'd venture to say at any position..Does he deserve it just because he has the stats..Do coaches start to intentionally juice up players stats to make it a computer based competition for the heisman?

And some years the winner is a compromise winner, much like this year. Ingram is, IMO, worthy this year and this year only. He wouldn't have been anywhere near the top 10 last year.

 

[morbitzerker]

It's not a Most Valuable Player to his Team trophy either.

Before the season started I said as long as it's not Tebow. And that panned out. Therefore visa vie that's enough for me

Except that, again, for the next two years, Archie's accomplishments are in jeopardy. And I would not be surprised if Ingram won it again next year, especially if no one puts up numbers like Gerhart did this year, and Mark still has just a decent season, like he did this year.