2009 BB HOF: Henderson and Rice

[Brutus1]

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember Rice's numbers away from Fenway being rather average. Does anyone have his home/away splits ?

As for next year, the only one with a chance is Alomar, but I would not be surprised if he does not get in on the first try, not because of numbers but because of the spitting. None of the others have a chance, except possibly Edgar, who will eventually get in.

It's time for BB to get in next year.

 

[AKAK]

Next year's first-timers...

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.

Alomar is a no-brainer. Galarraga had a number of good years in Colorado, but how much of that was altitude enhanced? Doubt he gets in. Larkin's an interesting case, good, not great, numbers for his position, good glove, won an MVP and made 12 All-Star teams. Was usually amongst the best SS in the game. I think he's 50/50 on his first shot. Edgar Martinez, does the DH thing hurt him? I think so. McGriff, falls into the good, not great category to me.

Before the Reds fans Chime in... I'll say I wouldn't have a problem with Larking getting in at all... he was the Best SS in the NL for a long time. He also played hurt a lot, dunno if that's good or bad, still missed a lot of games... but... probably hurt his "averages." Not gonna call him a no brainer, but, if I had a vote, I'd check the box. Plus defender at the most important defensive position.

Having said that, I don't think Martinez is close.

Robbie Alomar... well, you know great when you see it.... would have been nice to get the 300K hits... but, I think he lost interest as much as he couldn't do it anymore late in his career. He was a fantastic player. (If sometimes a douchebag)

 

[tyrus]

Alomar is one of my all-time favorites to watch growing up. Silky smooth with the glove, good hitter....loved seeing him and Omar up the middle. He might not go on the 1st ballot. He only stuck with each of his teams for 3-4 years a piece, wasnt a great clubhouse guy.

I know I am not old enough to really have a good feel for Rice, but I dont understand why it takes 15 years to get in. He hasnt hit a HR in 20 yrs. His stats are no better now than they were in 1989. Baseball writters are arrogant. They just toy with these guys. Nobody ever bought a ticket to watch Buster Olney type. Some of them make it about them and not the players.

I just dont see Rice as a HOFer. His numbers are good, but HOF? I know he was tough on RBI Baseball.

 

[Bucklion]

Before the Reds fans Chime in... I'll say I wouldn't have a problem with Larking getting in at all... he was the Best SS in the NL for a long time. He also played hurt a lot, dunno if that's good or bad, still missed a lot of games... but... probably hurt his "averages." Not gonna call him a no brainer, but, if I had a vote, I'd check the box. Plus defender at the most important defensive position.

Having said that, I don't think Martinez is close.

Robbie Alomar... well, you know great when you see it.... would have been nice to get the 300K hits... but, I think he lost interest as much as he couldn't do it anymore late in his career. He was a fantastic player. (If sometimes a douchebag)

I really can't believe this list...Andy Ashby? 98-110, 4.12 ERA. That's a reasonable 4th starter. Pat Hentgen? 131-112, 4.32 ERA. OK, he's a 3rd starter. At least he won one Cy Young, I guess, which...makes him worthy of HOF consideration? He only won more than 15 games one other year. Shane Reynolds? What is it about that 114-96 record and 4.09 ERA that merits consideration? Do they have an arm injury wing?

This is why the HOF process is a joke...hardly anyone gets in many years, but players who weren't even good enough to be the leaders of their own teams get votes.

 

[Piney]

Time for my Rickey Henderson story. Back in 1993 (last season at Muni) since I played high school baseball I got a season pass to sit in GA for Tribe games (best promotion ever!) . So me and my buddies went often and always sat in the left field corner close to the field.

Needless to say we were drinking heavily before & during the game but we were ripping on Ricky bigtime all game long. Midway through the game we finally got a reaction, he flipped us off. But it was rather creative, he put his mitt in front of his face like he was yawning and 'hid' him flipping us off.

The hilarious thing was watching the highlights on sportscenter they showed him 'yawning' and really the only people that say him flip us the bird was the rest of the crowd in the corner of the field.

I love me some Rickey!

 

[LitlBuck]

Time for my Rickey Henderson story. Back in 1993 (last season at Muni) since I played high school baseball I got a season pass to sit in GA for Tribe games (best promotion ever!) . So me and my buddies went often and always sat in the left field corner close to the field.
!

You must be a young pup. When I was living in Cleveland and was playing amateur baseball, the only way you get free tickets to Indians games were if you were a very good student. There was only one game designated for amateur baseball players.

 

[Nutriaitch]

Hardly other-worldly, even for the late 70's/early 80's, and he didn't reach any of those milestones.

he finished top 10 in RBI every year but 2 from '75-'76
was a triple crown candidate in '77, '77, and '79

I dont understand why it takes 15 years to get in. He hasnt hit a HR in 20 yrs. His stats are no better now than they were in 1989. Baseball writters are arrogant. They just toy with these guys. Nobody ever bought a ticket to watch Buster Olney type. Some of them make it about them and not the players.

was listening to MLB Homeplate either yesterday or today.
One guy in the morning (don't remember his name) said that in a 15 year peiod, the voter turnover is about 50%.

some writers quit being baseball exclusive and lose their votes, some guys pass on, some retire, all the while every year, a new group hit their 10 year minimum and become voters.

so that explains at least some of the swings in votes.
When he 1st retired, those writers were still remembering guys like Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Snider, etc. Quite a benchmark to be put up against. So Rice falls short in their eyes.

While some of the newer writers aren't old enough to have seen those guys, so it's just empty numbers for them, but they saw Rice play and he was one of the best they saw, so he gets their votes.

 

[Nutriaitch]

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember Rice's numbers away from Fenway being rather average. Does anyone have his home/away splits ?

Home:
.320 BA, 208 HR (13 per year), 802 RBI (50 per year)

Away:
.277 BA, 174 HR (10 per year), 649 RBI (40 per year)


Other than Batting Average, not a huge difference

 

[WoodyWorshiper]

I'd vote for Alomar and Larkin, although I am admittedly biased for Larkin.



Doesn't he hold an MLB record for playing with the most teams? That should be worth something, right?

I think Robin Ventura should be voted in, but the bust should be placed in a headlock by a statue of Nolan Ryan.

GREAT post on the Ventura angle. Truly the best "fight"(?) in the history of baseball. Robin realized once he got within about 5 feet of Ryan that he had just made the biggest mistake of his life, and accepted his "ass-whipping" with pretty much little resistence, as it should have been.

I once heard an interview with Nolan Ryan years ago about his knack for being a "tough" guy, and if there was anyone in the game that he feared. Nolan basically said that he "feared" nobody, but that if there was one guy that he'd prefer to have never gone up against, it would have been Dusty Baker.

Peace.

 

[Bucklion]

GREAT post on the Ventura angle. Truly the best "fight"(?) in the history of baseball. Robin realized once he got within about 5 feet of Ryan that he had just made the biggest mistake of his life, and accepted his "ass-whipping" with pretty much little resistence, as it should have been.

I once heard an interview with Nolan Ryan years ago about his knack for being a "tough" guy, and if there was anyone in the game that he feared. Nolan basically said that he "feared" nobody, but that if there was one guy that he'd prefer to have never gone up against, it would have been Dusty Baker.

Peace.

I don't think I would have wanted to mess with Albert Belle...not only could he kick my ass (and probably Nolan's), but even if he didn't, he would probably run over me, my wife, my kids, and my dog (or Nolan's) with his car afterwards.

 

[NFBuck]

I don't think I would have wanted to mess with Albert Belle...not only could he kick my ass (and probably Nolan's), but even if he didn't, he would probably run over me, my wife, my kids, and my dog (or Nolan's) with his car afterwards.

...or just bean you in the chest with a baseball.

 

[Bucklion]

he finished top 10 in RBI every year but 2 from '75-'76
was a triple crown candidate in '77, '77, and '79



was listening to MLB Homeplate either yesterday or today.
One guy in the morning (don't remember his name) said that in a 15 year peiod, the voter turnover is about 50%.

some writers quit being baseball exclusive and lose their votes, some guys pass on, some retire, all the while every year, a new group hit their 10 year minimum and become voters.

so that explains at least some of the swings in votes.
When he 1st retired, those writers were still remembering guys like Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Snider, etc. Quite a benchmark to be put up against. So Rice falls short in their eyes.

While some of the newer writers aren't old enough to have seen those guys, so it's just empty numbers for them, but they saw Rice play and he was one of the best they saw, so he gets their votes.

Uh, what?

Typos aside, a lot of guys have been "triple crown candidates" over 2 or 3 years...means they were good players, but not necessarily HOFers. He doesn't rank in the top 50 of HR, RBI, runs, hits, SLG %, total bases, or extra base hits. He is ranked 6th...in GDPs. I stand by what has been said, which is that he was a force for a 3 year period (1977-1979) and doen't rank in the top 50 in baseball in any major statistical category. If he had played in Milwaukee or San Diego, he never would have gotten close to the Hall.

 

[Nutriaitch]

Uh, what?

wow!
I shanked that one.
'75-'86 in the RBI thing. Meaning he was one of the best of his era.

 

[DaytonBuck]

If Ryne Sandberg is a HOF then Barry is easily.

No one actually voted for Jay Bell did they?

 

[Bucklion]

If Ryne Sandberg is a HOF then Barry is easily.

No one actually voted for Jay Bell did they?

2 votes for Jay Bell.