2008 TSUN News

[HailToMichigan]

So, you remember players yelling at coaches during Carr's tenure, but Carr was the only one yelling? That makes no sense. Every coach yells at their players, it's part of their job. But, to see a player screaming in the face of a coach is something you rarely see, even at the professional level. Even if you claim that there were player/coach altercations behind closed doors, I can't recall that sort of public fracas at UM before. The only times I can remember a similar scene in a college game, it was indicative of a team that was not under the control of it's coach (Holtz at USC, Coker at Miami, Smith at MSU, etc.).

My point is, what's the difference between a guy yelling at a coach (who was like, an assistant strength and conditioning coach IIRC) and a guy sassing a coach (which in this case would be the head coach)? It's something that college kids do every now and again. Only difference is the volume.

 

[jwinslow]

My point is, what's the difference between a guy yelling at a coach (who was like, an assistant strength and conditioning coach IIRC) and a guy sassing a coach (which in this case would be the head coach)? It's something that college kids do every now and again. Only difference is the volume.

One fairly major difference, much of the defense was yelling at the coaches. It wasn't just one malcontent popping off at the mouth at a coach.

 

[osugrad21]

I thought we were supposed to be on the same side.

Absolutely but I dont have to agree with everything right? Your point is valid but your conclusion is too much of a blanket.

Sideline emotions are never a good evaluation of anything and are to never be taken personally.

 

[jwinslow]

Anyone read anything about why they were upset with that particular assistant (S&C?) if the timeout was over the slow playcall from the sidelines?

 

[generaladm]

Absolutely but I dont have to agree with everything right? Your point is valid but your conclusion is too much of a blanket.

Sideline emotions are never a good evaluation of anything and are to never be taken personally.

I agree with that. I did qualify my statement with "The only times I can remember...", and I didn't remember the Clarett incident until you brought it up. To be honest, my recollection is fuzzy, because I haven't seen that game since it happened. I do remember some sideline spats between MoC and the coaches, but I don't recall any that were as heated as the UM incident, which looked like it could have come to blows if it went any further. My final sentence was exaggerated, but for the purpose of making DickRod look like a bad coach. Sometimes it's necessary to stretch the truth for a noble cause.

 

[lvbuckeye]

And did you guys keep Cooper when he was putting up loss after loss to Michigan? Would you even have been that patient with him if he kept losing bowl games and suffered the most embarrassing loss in NCAA history? We were stagnating. You can't "take away the losses to Tressel", as much as I'd like to, because that's half of what you're judged on at Michigan. Yeah, take away the most important games of the year and we're doing alright. I'm OK with taking the risk we took because it's not acceptable to sit around and be a regional power that can beat up on Minnesota but can't win the ones that really count.

they only kept Cooper for so long because they felt guilty about the way they ran Earl Bruce out of town.

 

[lvbuckeye]

To further the sentiments expressed by Mili and Ochre, one factor in Cooper's firing was the perception that he was not an "Ohio guy", but a carpetbagger who turned the program into a football factory, and turned his back on the school's traditions. Conversely, UM fired a genuine "Michigan guy", and replaced him with a carpetbagger, in the hopes that he would provide a quick and flashy fix to the perception that the program had become outdated. The result: loss of traditions, and the worst season in school history. Carr had a better rivalry record, better bowl record, and more conference championships than Cooper, not to mention he was only ten years removed from a NC. I don't think the Carr firing was necessarily a bad move, he wasn't going to take the program back to the top. But, the replacement search was severely botched, and now UM's stuck with a coach who is in over his head both at the university, and in the conference.

Carr wasn't fired. his contract was up after the '07 season, and he said several years before that that he wouldn't re-sign because he wanted to spend time with his grandkids. anyone who payed attention knew that '07 would be Carr's last season as early as '03 or '04.

 

[BrutusBobcat]

Don't you?

Going by Rivals' list, there are 13 four-stars or above (in this case, no five stars yet) in the class, and Will Campbell will probably be back, making it 14. Since 2002 when Rivals first started keeping track, there have been a couple other Michigan classes with that many, but never any more than 13 - the lone exception being last year, with 17, five of which RR was directly responsible for and a couple more that he had to recruit so as not to decommit. And this is only his first-and-a-half recruiting season at Michigan. I could be argued down to believing there isn't really any up-or-down difference, but I think recruiting has gone very well. And anyone who tries to claim he's done worse is just nuts.

That's where I was going with that comment. He hasn't downgraded your recruiting -- I just don't see where he's improved it significantly, or at all. You've been getting solid top 10 and top 15 classes, and you should. It's not as if you're Indiana. What I haven't seen in a while is Michigan in a straight fight for national five star guys, other than the Pryor battle last year, and RR hasn't been going head-to-head with Pete Force One over guys the way Tressel does annually. If I recall correctly, the failure to land the really big fish was one of the knocks on Carr.

Of course, Carr also never had to sell a program that just went 3-9.

The real question still is, what makes you think that he can do more with that talent than the talent that's been consistently coming into the program over the past 3-4 years, which he currently has? Yes, it's just one year, but damn -- that's a hell of a year. That's a bad year even in Evanston.

You say that like you're incredulous it could ever happen. But Pat White was a meh-rated three-star guy, two stars if you prefer Scout. Beaver and Forcier are probably the most talented QBs coming out of high school that RR's ever coached.

We're quite familiar with the underrated three star player around here. I would argue that White was highly underrated by the recruiting services, precisely because as a college QB that he'd only be successful in certain systems. Clearly, he turned out to be perfect for what RR wants to do. I'm not sure I believe that his skill set is easily duplicated. However, I'll grant you that there's no way that Beaver or Forcier could be anything but a dramatic improvement for you at QB. It remains to be seen if they're really as talented or more so than White.

 

[generaladm]

Carr wasn't fired. his contract was up after the '07 season, and he said several years before that that he wouldn't re-sign because he wanted to spend time with his grandkids. anyone who payed attention knew that '07 would be Carr's last season as early as '03 or '04.

Duly noted. Carr wasn't fired, he retired. I believe the course of conversation mentioned Carr being fired, so I went with that. Regardless, I don't think it was %100 certain that Carr would retire at the beginning of the 07 season. If it were, it just speaks more as to how bad the UM athletic department handled the transition. The way it was handled suggests that they were in a hurry to find a replacement in the end season/bowl period, and after Miles' situation threw a wrench in the works, they made a panicked decision with DickRod. Whatever the situation, they fucked up. DickRod may prove to be the coach that brings UM to the level of NW, Purdue, or some such mid-level Big Ten program, but considering the tradition of the program, it will be a failure unless he can manage a conference championship more often than not. Considering OSU is on a path to dominate the conference for the next 2-3 years, he may never get that chance.

 

[BuckTwenty]

You say that like you're incredulous it could ever happen. But Pat White was a meh-rated three-star guy, two stars if you prefer Scout. Beaver and Forcier are probably the most talented QBs coming out of high school that RR's ever coached.

Yeah. And Mike D'Andrea was the highest ranked LB Tressel ever recruited. Doesn't mean he was 2 stars better than Hawk or Laurinaitis in the end.

For the Big Ten's sake, I hope your coach is relying on how he evaluates what talent is out there, the specific needs the team needs, and can develop that talent while keeping those guys out of trouble and making them better people for society. Because if neither of those amazing 4* freshmen QBs pans out or you guys can't field a defense and an offensive line in the next two years, Rich Rod will be counting the money he "earned" from his buyout while everyone gets ready for their bowl games.

 

[jwinslow]

For the Big Ten's sake, I hope your coach is relying on how he evaluates what talent is out there, the specific needs the Some of that depends on the scheme they run. Mike Martin was very opposed to a 3-3-5, and others like Craig Roh aren't crazy about it either.

Who will RR hire to replace the excused Shafer? Will the new DC be a 3-3-5 guy, RR's preference?

If/When the switch is made, how will it impact recruiting or transfers?

 

[Rich_Rodriguez]

I don't see what all this talk about a defense is, dont ya all understand? It's offense, if I don't win all the time whoever the defensive coach gets fired, someone has to take responsiblity for the losses, and we all know it can't be me!

 

[buckeyesin07]

Obviously not. At least not from year to year. From beginning to end of this season? Absolutely. But in any case, it's the height of foolishness to take the results of one year and assume it will continue that way for all time.

Nice. You were asked if you saw any improvement in specific aspects of the game or other positive things you can point to, and your response is, "Absolutely." I think this is why many people outside the UM fanbase are amazed at UM fans' response to the whole RR situation--despite the 3-9 year, despite the loss to Toledo (among others), despite the fights on the sideline between the players and coaches, despite the alarming rate of players leaving the program (yes, alarming even considering a coaching regime change), despite the lack of any specific positives that you can point to from this season (as you've made clear by your inability to point out and instead generically saying that there were some), etc., UM fans seem to blindly believe that RR is good for the program simply because they think he turned things around at WVU (which is, at best, a dubious proposition, given the success at WVU before RR's arrival).

 

[BayBuck]

Going by Rivals' list, there are 13 four-stars or above (in this case, no five stars yet) in the class

And going by Scout's list, it's half that number. Meh.

 

[buckiprof]

RR was supposed to bring an upgrade in strength and conditioning and team discipline over the "fat, lazy and too easygoing" Carr days. I don't see that on the field at all.

In the off season we all heard about the Barwis effect. How the Barwis trained scUM team would have advantages in the second half of games especially in the latter part of the season.

Well let's look at the facts starting with their game against Illinois on 10/04:

10/04 Illinois vs scUM
Ill 17 scUM 14 at half
Ill 45 scUM 20 Final
(Illinois outscored scUM 28 - 6 in second half)

10/11 Toledo vs scUM
Tol 7 scUM 10 at half
Tol 13 scUM 10 Final
(Toledo outscored scUM 6 - 0 in second half)

10/18 State Penn vs scUM
PSU 14 scUM 17 at half
PSU 46 scUM 17 Final
(PSU outscored scUM 32 - 0 in second half)

10/25 Mich. St. vs scUM
MSU 14 scUM 14 at half
MSU 35 scUM 21 Final
(MSU outscored scUM 21 - 7 in second half)

11/01 Purdue vs scUM
Purdue 21 scUM 28 at half
Purdue 48 scUM 42 Final
(Purdue outscored scUM 27 - 14 in second half)

11/15 NW vs scUM
NW 7 scUM 14 at half
NW 21 scUM 14 Final
(NW outscored scUM 14 - 0 in second half)

11/22 OSU vs scUM
OSU 14 scUM 7 at half
OSU 42 scUM 7 Final
(OSU outscored scUM 28 - 0 in second half)

So exactly what does this tell us? That all the huffing and puffing about Barwis and the Barwis effect was simply all smoke? In the 7 games listed above, I surely don't see the Barwis effect that vulvarine fans claimed would be present in the second half of the season, during the second half of games! Just the opposite.

Then again, maybe Barwis is all that, and there is another reason.

Coaches make adjustments at halftime. So maybe Barwis isn't the blame for these second half collapses, maybe it is the coaches fault.

But which coaches?

Well in 4 of the 7 games listed above, the skunkbears were shut out in the second half, in one they scored 6 points, and in another they scored 7 points. Over those 7 games, the skunkbears averaged 3.86 points in the second half. Which skunkbear coach is in charge of the offense?

So which is it skunkbear fan: Barwis isn't the S&C messiah he was portrayed to be as evidenced by the game stats listed above, or DickWad isn't the coaching messiah he was portrayed to be as evidenced by the game stats listed above.