2008 tOSU QB discussion (official thread)

[ScarletStorms]

SS, are you admitting you don't have an open mind about Boeckman?Like the 1 read and go, which Troy also struggled with through September 2005? That was not only rust that held him back.

Henton is not Troy late 2005. Maybe he'll become that, but he's very much early troy without the same arm or playmakers at WR (I think the '08 crop are good enough, but three first round WRs are not starting this year). This may be enough to run wild in the b10, but OSU will need much more to overcome USC & whoever they meet in the BCS (hopefully).Smith clearly had the better upside, but I think early 04 would still have been ugly with Troy under center. NC State & Iowa would've given Troy a lot of trouble.

As to the Boeckman open mind, it was a difference of perspectives. I think Boeckman will be better but I don't think he will ever have the intangibles that we will need.

What I meant by the Henton Troy comparisons are that I think Zwick looked very good mechanically just as Boeckman does. But Troy got the opportunity to show what brings when he was on the field against Michigan. I doubt JT would have displaced Zwick if he hadn't exploded as he did, because what he did doesn't show up in practice. And I don't think Troy was rusty at all against Texas, he was the more productive QB during the game but JT still went to Zwick with the game on the line. He didn't make that mistake again but he had to make the mistake to recognize what Troy could do for us that Zwick couldn't.

I think we are in a similar situation here. I think Henton brings that winning quality that Krenzel and Troy had. And yes to the above poster, Krenzel was assuredly a play making QB. Every time we needed a play he made one. He even produced with the Chicago Bears when he ended up the starter for a couple games. I think he even had a winning record with a horrible team although his stats we less than impressive. That is because he can make a play when he needs one. Now in this case, Boeckman is a 6 year senior now with obvious NFL aspirations who led us to the national championship last year. That is going to be tough for coach to pass over but it is undeniable that we don't have a player that can pull it out for us. And I am not saying that it needs to be a quarterback but like jwinslow said, although we may have something with our incoming freshman receivers they are probably going to be to young to see the field.

We can take our same offense into next year but consider that a quarterback like Boeckman can't improve his arm strength or his accuracy much. And Robo can't improve much upon his route running. And no matter how great Wells is, strong teams are going to make it very difficult for him if we don't have someone else to help. And I don't think any of us is going to argue that our offense was top tier last year. So if we have an offense littered with NFL caliber players, ask yourself why we aren't a great offense.

Henton is the single easiest way to change that.

 

[ScarletStorms]

If we're down 4 with 2 minutes to play at USC, will TB make all the right decisions to lead us to the TD? Last year...no. This year...we shall see.

I sure hope so. And for now, he's obviously the best option we have anyway. Henton probably has more upside, but it'd take him a while to grow into that role as well. You don't just step onto the field in your first real meaningful PT and become the hero as a QB. So Todd has got to be the answer if we're going to beat USC the third game of the year.

Troy Smith would disagree.

No seriously though, good points but I don't think Boeckman's decision making needed improving at all. He just isn't the kind of QB you can depend on to win a game. And that doesn't make him a bad QB it just means he doesn't have that rare winners quality.

Henton has been with us for a while now. And last year I was extremely impressed with how far along he was. Many of us thought that he was ready to take over last year. If he has been improving himself I don't see any reason why he can't be prepared for USC after two meaningful games. If that were the case, it would really help that we have such disciplined players around him.

I agree with Saine. He could grow into the role that we need. But not only will he need to improve but JT is going to have to recognize the necessity to design plays for him.

 

[jwinslow]

As to the Boeckman open mind, it was a difference of perspectives. I think Boeckman will be better but I don't think he will ever have the intangibles that we will need.

Based on what? That he can't escape the same way the others can?

And I don't think Troy was rusty at all against Texas, he was the more productive QB during the game but JT still went to Zwick with the game on the line. He didn't make that mistake again but he had to make the mistake to see what he was missing out on.

Troy was very mediocre in September vs Texas, SDSU & Penn State. The lone exception was Iowa, the only team to run man to man coverage out of the 4, a much more comfortable challenge for young Troy.

And yes to the above Krenzel was assuredly a play making QB. Every time we needed a play he made one.

We needed few plays per game from Krenzel. When we needed a big passing game from Krenzel vs UM in 03, he was not able to keep pace.

Krenzel was certainly a gamer. He was a perfect complement to a strong running game and dominating defense. I do not believe he would do much better against LSU, nor with the 07 defense.

We can take our same offense into next year but consider that a quarterback like Boeckman can't improve his arm strength or his accuracy much.

Baloney.

And Robo can't improve much upon his route running.

Well, he could not injure his knee in week 4 this yewar. And the #3 WR position has a ton of room to improve, whether that's Small, Posey, Stoney, Dane, etc.

So if we have an offense littered with NFL caliber players, ask yourself why we aren't a great offense.

Beanie is a serious NFL talent. The rest have much more to prove to be hailed as serious NFL talents (read future starters or first rounds). Robo, Saine and others have that potential, but need to prove much as well.

That is going to be tough for coach to pass over but it is undeniable that we don't have a player that pull it out for us.

Wait, so it's undeniable that Boeckman has no clutch in him and can't get back to his PSU form... but Henton who is still struggling to progress beyond read 1 does have that quality locked down?

That's a pretty inconsistent standard.

I agree with Saine. He could grow into the role that we need. But not only will he need to improve but JT is going to have to recognize the necessity to design plays for him.

You should do some reading on the 'pony' formation.

No seriously though, good points but I don't think Boeckman's decision making needed improving at all.

If you want to argue he can't improve upon it, then do so, but his decision making was questionable down the home stretch of the season. He'll tell you as much.

 

[billmac91]

Let me help you out then. Grab your calculator and tally up all the rushes that Wells had. Then I want you to divide 4 by that number.

Maybe I'm missing the significance of this.....can someone help me out?

 

[ScarletStorms]

Based on what? That he can't escape the same way the others can?
Troy was very mediocre in September vs Texas, SDSU & Penn State. The lone exception was Iowa, the only team to run man to man coverage out of the 4, a much more comfortable challenge for young Troy.
We needed few plays per game from Krenzel. When we needed a big passing game from Krenzel vs UM in 03, he was not able to keep pace.

Krenzel was certainly a gamer. He was a perfect complement to a strong running game and dominating defense. I do not believe he would do much better against LSU, nor with the 07 defense.Baloney.Well, he could not injure his knee in week 4 this yewar. And the #3 WR position has a ton of room to improve, whether that's Small, Posey, Stoney, Dane, etc.

Beanie is a serious NFL talent. The rest have much more to prove to be hailed as serious NFL talents (read future starters or first rounds). Robo, Saine and others have that potential, but need to prove much as well.Wait, so it's undeniable that Boeckman has no clutch in him and can't get back to his PSU form... but Henton who is still struggling to progress beyond read 1 does have that quality locked down?

That's a pretty inconsistent standard.You should do some reading on the 'pony' formation.If you want to argue he can't improve upon it, then do so, but his decision making was questionable down the home stretch of the season. He'll tell you as much.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on just about every point you you have got there. Boeckman fell "out" of form when the pressure got to him. Obviously his decision making suffered when we needed something from him and he couldn't deliver nor could anyone step up. He was the same quarterback consistently through 13 games that got put up against more difficulties. And of course he would tell me that his decision making was porous because the alternative is that he cannot be depended upon to make a play.

I am not just talking about the skill positions on our offense. The majority of our offense will play in the NFL. Even our backups are NFL caliber. And at what point in my post did you get it in your head that I was arguing that we are fielding a team of NFL starters that are under performing. Take it this way. We have as much talent as any of the top tier offenses and yet we aren't one of them. And we are probably deeper than most of them too, because our coaching staff does a great job getting our second unit time.

You want his accuracy to improve? He threw 64%. It is not going to get much better. Are you trying to tell me that he is going to throw 70%. "Baloney". He is a 65% quarterback.

And I understand that we can move in a dynamic 3rd receiver but I am not so sure that anyone out of Sanzenbacher is going to step up. And he is a possession receiver as well. I still think we are going to run a majority of two receiver sets. And I said as much in earlier posts. You seem to have a bleaker view of our current talent but a much brighter view of our incoming freshman if you think that one of them is going to unseat Small and Sanzenbacher for PT.

And BTW our defense was stellar. If you are going to argue with me that they hung up too many points it might have been because we couldn't get anything going on O which affects momentum and time to rest for the D. Ill accept that 2002 was better, but not by much. And maybe Krenzel wouldn't have performed much better against LSU but you have to consider that our 2002 had a number of players that we could depend on to make plays.

And for your information, you don't need to be mobile or even a quarterback to be a play maker or posses the intangible quality that is eluding you.

Your reads of Henton are completely unfounded. I am not even going to try to argue it because we would need a bigger body of work to conclusively decide it either way. But I will tell you that I am in total disagreeance with your evaluations of this offense, defense, and the incoming freshman, so I guess it only follows suit that we don't see eye to eye on Henton. And I suppose I can't fault you on not being able to see past measurables. The NFL scouts did the same thing when evaluating Smith.

 

[Sportsbuck28]

You seem to have a bleaker view of our current talent but a much brighter view of our incoming freshman if you think that one of them is going to unseat Small and Sanzenbacher for PT.

You must have missed where Jake Stoneburner has been the most impressive WR in camp so far... and not to mention Flash Thomas and DeVier Posey are more highly touted. Per Scout and other sources, Small is going to have to work hard to dig himself out of a mess, so there is a damn good chance of him being unseated for PT.

And BTW our defense was stellar. If you are going to argue with me that they hung up too many points it might have been because we couldn't get anything going on O which affects momentum and time to rest for the D. Ill accept that 2002 was better, but not by much. And maybe Krenzel wouldn't have performed much better against LSU but you have to consider that our 2002 had a number of players that we could depend on to make plays.

That 2002 defense was one of the best of the modern era. The 2007 defense can't even be compared to it, especially when you consider the difference in the talent of the teams the two faced. The 2002 defense got stronger as the competition did, while the 2007 D folded when the chips were down.

 

[ScarletStorms]

Maybe I'm missing the significance of this.....can someone help me out?

I guess the significance is that if you give me 20 touches a game with our offense even I will break one eventually. He can move if you give him space but Beanie excels at running over and through defenders. He picks up chunks at a time.

We need a player that our opponents are scared could score from any part of the field. Someone to take some pressure off Beanie so that he can continue to do what he does best without the other team focusing all its attention on him.

 

[Bleed S & G]

Maybe you should take your own advice and keep an open mind about Boeckman.

Yup. I had to check myself a few days ago.. I still feel like he didn't play very well at all the last few games, but from all the reports coming out - it sounds like he made the most of the offseason

 

[ScarletStorms]

You must have missed where Jake Stoneburner has been the most impressive WR in camp so far... and not to mention Flash Thomas and DeVier Posey are more highly touted. Per Scout and other sources, Small is going to have to work hard to dig himself out of a mess, so there is a damn good chance of him being unseated for PT.


That 2002 defense was one of the best of the modern era. The 2007 defense can't even be compared to it, especially when you consider the difference in the talent of the teams the two faced. The 2002 defense got stronger as the competition did, while the 2007 D folded when the chips were down.

You are confusing our 2007 defense with our 2006 defense. 2007 never folded. Our defense was #1 in the nation for both years so yes I realize that 2002 was amazing but you can't take anything away from 2007. It was certainly adequate enough to have won the championship with.

I will give you Stoneburner because he can line up at TE too. But I doubt Posey or Thomas will get more playing time than Small. And you have to consider that these kids are going to need time to learn not only our offense but how to play at this level as well before they can be effective. Yes some of them could play this year, but they won't get significant time with the exception of Stoneburner. And I don't see us running 4 receiver sets.

Of course this is all opinion and I could entirely be off. If we do manage to field a dynamic play maker at WR then Boeckman will have much less pressure on him and he might be a better option than Henton. However, that is a lot of assumption and faith to be putting into freshman.

 

[billmac91]

I guess the significance is that if you give me 20 touches a game with our offense even I will break one eventually. He can move if you give him space but Beanie excels at running over and through defenders. He picks up chunks at a time.

We need a player that our opponents are scared could score from any part of the field. Someone to take some pressure off Beanie so that he can continue to do what he does best without the other team focusing all its attention on him.

Todd Boeckman had the highest effiency rating in the Big 10 and the most 40+ yard completions we've had since Tressel has been coach.

I guess I don't understand.

 

[Sportsbuck28]

You are confusing our 2007 defense with our 2006 defense. 2007 never folded. Our defense was #1 in the nation for both years so yes I realize that 2002 was amazing but you can't take anything away from 2007. It was certainly adequate enough to have won the championship with.

If 2007 didn't fold, then what happened against Illinois and LSU?

I will give you Stoneburner because he can line up at TE too. But I doubt Posey or Thomas will get more playing time than Small. And you have to consider that these kids are going to need time to learn not only our offense but how to play at this level as well before they can be effective. Yes some of them could play this year, but they won't get significant time with the exception of Stoneburner. And I don't see us running 4 receiver sets.

Like I said, it's been confirmed that Small is in Tressel's dog house right now, and that is one hard place to get out of. It honestly would not shock me to see him passed up by the freshman this fall.

And from what I've seen they are installing more spread sets involving multiple receivers for 2008.

 

[ScarletStorms]

Todd Boeckman had the highest effiency rating in the Big 10 and the most 40+ yard completions we've had since Tressel has been coach.

I guess I don't understand.

Well we were talking about Wells but in the case of Boeckman yes he did have the greatest efficiency because he is a very efficient quarterback especially when surrounded with such efficient players. I can't take that away from him. And yes he does have accuracy on the long ball but the only reason he had more 40+ completions was because Tressel specifically made sure that he was throwing them. I believe that that was supposed to keep the defenses honest. The problem was that he couldn't throw one when the game was on the line.

Lol Iv got a finals this week, and Iv been typing for about an hour responding to these posts. Very irresponsible but I love the buckeyes and I love to argue.

 

[ScarletStorms]

If 2007 didn't fold, then what happened against Illinois and LSU?


Like I said, it's been confirmed that Small is in Tressel's dog house right now, and that is one hard place to get out of. It honestly would not shock me to see him passed up by the freshman this fall.

And from what I've seen they are installing more spread sets involving multiple receivers for 2008.

Well Illinois and LSU's happen when your defense has no time to rest, you have no momentum on your side, you don't believe that your offense can score when it needs to, or you are facing a spread that you are unprepared for.

I hear reports every year that we are installing new schemes but just like last year when I heard that we were studying the New Orleans offense so we could run a variation of it with Saine and Wells I didn't count on it. I honestly hope we do open it up for some of the freshmen because I do believe that they can contribute especially when you consider what we lack in our offense. But we are a disciplined and efficient unit. I think it would be uncharacteristic if we went to 4 receiver sets this year specifically using freshman. But then again I wouldn't be necessarily surprised either. I guess we are going to have to wait and see how this develops but based on what I have seen I think changing quarterbacks is the most plausible answer to our problems.

 

[billmac91]

Well we were talking about Wells but in the case of Boeckman yes he did have the greatest efficiency because he is a very efficient quarterback especially when surrounded with such efficient players. I can't take that away from him. And yes he does have accuracy on the long ball but the only reason he had more 40+ completions was because Tressel specifically made sure that he was throwing them. I believe that that was supposed to keep the defenses honest. The problem was that he couldn't throw one when the game was on the line.

Lol Iv got a finals this week, and Iv been typing for about an hour responding to these posts. Very irresponsible but I love the buckeyes and I love to argue.

are you referencing the perfect pass to Ray Small in the championship game that got intercepted because Ray didn;t fight/shield his defender? How about the perfect throw to Robiskie, that Brian catches 99 out of 100 times, but got a little over-confident and didn't protect the football?

And the argument was about Beanie, but then you said he needs a playmaker at QB to take the pressure off of him. My point was Boeackman had the most 40+ yard pass plays in a season since Tressel has been head coach, and had the highest passing effiency rating in the Big 10 last year. It's tough to be a better play-maker than that.

 

[ScarletStorms]

are you referencing the perfect pass to Ray Small in the championship game that got intercepted because Ray didn;t fight/shield his defender? How about the perfect throw to Robiskie, that Brian catches 99 out of 100 times, but got a little over-confident and didn't protect the football?

And the argument was about Beanie, but then you said he needs a playmaker at QB to take the pressure off of him. My point was Boeackman had the most 40+ yard pass plays in a season since Tressel has been head coach, and had the highest passing effiency rating in the Big 10 last year. It's tough to be a better play-maker than that.

Ok, yes Boeckman had the most 40+ pass plays but he never completed one when we needed it which is exactly what we need in a play maker. Krenzel almost never had big throws except when the game was on the line. I don't care if he doesn't throw a single pass until we need him to and then he delivers. That takes the pressure off of Beanie when we need it off of Beanie, not when we are blowing a game wide open. And once again I don't think Beanie is the kind of player that wins games on one play, although he may have done it once in his career as I am sure I will have thrown back at me in an ignorant attempt to disprove my point as though it all predicates on him never having done it once in his career. That is my impatience with some of these posts getting the best of me, sorry.

You know what though, you are right about the championship game, he did have a few passes that were dropped but unfortunately you never get excuses from play makers. They will usually find a way to win. And we had all game to come back, I don't think it was ever really entirely out of reach as it was with Florida.