2005 Winter Conditioning (official thread)

[jwinslow]

Fortunately, the school does not care what ESPiN "journalists" think about the university. At this point Dukes is not guilty of anything, and ESPiN has already reported his crimes to the world (despite them being allegations). So if he is cleared of all charges, yes he'll be welcome back at school. Screw the journalists spinning their dirty webs.

 

[BucksinFL]

Before I begin, let me just state that, if I get to vote for who should start at QB for Ohio State, I'd vote for Troy Smith.

But I'd like to at least give Zwick the respect he deserves by comparing how each quarterback did through the season. And I'm comparing the two quarterbacks based on the most important stat (or possibly ONLY stat) - wins and losses.

First, Zwick: He beat a couple chump teams - Cincinnati and Marshall. He didn't look great against Marshall, I'll agree. But the win is a win. (Ok - some of you will say Nugent beat Marshall. I agree, but Nugent didn't seem to want to be QB.) He beat a really tough NC State team. Again, he didn't look great, but he didn't lose the game. Finally, I thought he looked really good against Ok St. Possibly his best game as a buckeye. Sure, the defense should get the credit for winning these games, but Zwick (like Brent Musberger's least favorite player - Krenzel) didn't lose them.

Then he lost to NORTHWESTERN! SUCK!!!!!! That may have cancelled out all of his good games the rest of the season. However, if you consider the offense scored a bunch of points (I forget how many - maybe 30?), and it was the defense that lost that game, maybe we shouldn't be so hard on Zwick for that one. The one time the offense actually does something is the time the defense doesn't even show up. He also lost to Wisconsin and Iowa - both really good teams.

Zwick's record: 4-3. Against "good" teams: 2-2. Against "bad" teams: 2-1.

Smith: He started off with wins against Indiana and Penn State. Hoo-rah. I think the only team that couldn't beat Indiana is the team of Kerry/Edwards. Then he beat Michigan State. (I know.. HE didn't beat Michigan State, but I have to give him credit for beating Michigan State if I'm going to give Zwick credit for beating Marshall or NC State.) And I'm not sure if Michigan State was a "good" team or a "bad" team. I'll put them in the "good" category. Anyway, he lost to Purdue - a really good Purdue team, that should have beaten Wisconsin and Michigan.

Going into the Michigan game, Smith's record: 3-1. "Good" teams: 1-1. "Bad" teams: 2-0. I think that the two QBs are pretty close, as far as their records go.

BUT (here's where I put all my support behind Smith) Smith beat Michigan. He not only beat Michigan, he STOMPED them. And it wasn't like Michigan State, where Ginn bailed him out - Smith looked awesome. He scrambled well, he threw well, he threw while scrambling well.

The ONLY thing I can find against Smith is his off-field problems. "They" say that that's why Zwick started the season, and why Smith lost playing time. And, of course, he was benched for the Alamo Bowl. If he can get his act together, I think he'll be the only quarterback I can think of to beat Michigan three times. AWESOME!

Youre not giving Zwick a fair shake in this one and you obviously have a bias for Smith. Zwick put up over 300 yards and 3 tds against marshall along with a game winning drive. Zwick also didnt LOSE the northwestern game, the defense was horrendous in that one. The offensive line was also terrible with zwick and got better as the season went on hence with smith. Smith put on a good game against michigan, other then that he was adequate at best and sometimes atrocious and I will say the same for Zwick.

 

[BuckeyeBill]

Who was it who said they didn't want this to turn into another Zwick v. Smith debate? Guess its too late, eh?

There are valid arguments for both QB's, each has had high points and low points. I personally think Troy is a better passer than Zwick, but lets call that one a draw. Neither QB blows away the other one in the passing department.

But the kicker is that TS adds a completely new dimension to the offense that Zwick doesn't. Its one more problem defenses have to deal with, one more aspect they have to practice. And yet, if TS just stays in the pocket, I'd argue he's still as good as Zwick.

Regardless, I want the best QB in there. I think its Smith, but what I think doesn't mean much. Let's hope JT gets it right.

 

[Zurp]

Youre not giving Zwick a fair shake in this one and you obviously have a bias for Smith. Zwick put up over 300 yards and 3 tds against marshall along with a game winning drive. Zwick also didnt LOSE the northwestern game, the defense was horrendous in that one. The offensive line was also terrible with zwick and got better as the season went on hence with smith. Smith put on a good game against michigan, other then that he was adequate at best and sometimes atrocious and I will say the same for Zwick.

Ok.. Again, I'll state that I don't remember stats. I just remember wins and losses. And some stats. Zwick may have had good numbers vs. Marshall, but didn't he throw two deep passes to Holmes? I know it was one, but I think it was two. Those helped his stats tremendously. And he also threw one or two where the defensive backs almost called for a fair catch. Besides, I think I gave him credit for that win.

And you're right - the OSU D sucked big-time vs. NW. It was like they had their asses up their heads (or the other way around). And I'm pretty sure I gave credit to Zwick for scoring the points (how may? 30+? I forget).

And the offensive line was terrible all season (though it got much better throughout the season). And Smith is not the savior of Buckeye Football. I can't remember Smith being "atrocious," as you say, but I agree that he was "adequate, at best."

The way I consider the two QBs, IMO Smith edges out Zwick solely for the Michigan game. If you beat Michigan, you're already a step-up for starting the next year.

Regardless, I want the best QB in there. I think its Smith, but what I think doesn't mean much. Let's hope JT gets it right.

I agree. What I think doesn't matter much. I'm just writing stuff that enters my brain (how did it get there?) on a web site where other people can agree or disagree. I hope that Tress doesn't listen to me. It would be a bad day for all of sports if he, or any other CFB coach ever listens to me for football advise.

"I'm the worst thing to happen to sports since Fox!"

 

[Yertle]

Smith put on a good game against michigan, other then that he was adequate at best and sometimes atrocious and I will say the same for Zwick.

YOW!!! Atrocious? Maybe I'm suffering from Michigan-game-amnesia, but that seems to be a harsh and unfair description of Smith's performance. As a matter of fact, I would say that it you're not giving Smith a fair shake in this one and you obviously have a bias for Zwick.

Anyways, as far as workouts go, what is the team up to right now? They don't have practices right now, do they? If there's something organized going on, why aren't there more pictures being released to the public (I was kind of interested to see some Pittman/Haw/Dionte Johnson pics)?

 

[jwinslow]

One can make an argument that Zwick didn't ahve much help nor time in the pocket. One could say he looked good for 1 half against marshall and then against NW (keep in mind people, losing to them doesn't make them a team you brag about throwing well against, they're still NW).

You could also argue that Smith was average most of the season until the Purdue and Michigan games. The Purdue game, to clarify some confused minds had 1 INT and 1 errant pitch on an option. The other 2 INTs hit the WRs in the hands and should not be held against smith. Then I think there was a remarkable performance by Smith against two AA dbs (and jackson was a legit one taht he burned all day with great passes).

Zwick had a truckload of INTs. And no you can't count the Indiana pass against Smith (which would not have been picked if you watch the pass, especially not by an IU db, it was too fast), cuz you can't count what ifs against QBs.

Zwick had a mediocre half season that was quite disappointing in most stretches (save two bombs in the 1st half against marshall and a good game against an average Northwestern). Smith was not great but never asked to do much in his first 3 games. When asked to turn it on he performed pretty well (a little too eager against Purdue), leading to the greatest individual performance against UM ever (is that correct? or was corso wrong).

So on INTs alone, as well as confidence and ability to overcome adversity (which involves spinning out of surefire sacks and scrambling for 40 yds against UM), I think there's no debate between Zwick and Smith. Who should start now? That's a separate issue. But for the regular season, there is no comparision.

 

[MARVYMARV14]

I must admit that although I tell my self that I will not get involved with these Zwick/Smith debates someones post always draws me in.
I am in the minority side, as I am one of those who doesn't care who is the QB as long as we are winniing and getting the job done, But this is how I feel.
When Zwick was in command after we won the first few and me watching him play he just never seemed comfortable his feet are just way to happy (especially sense he's not a scrambling QB.) his throws were terrible in the games we won often , and if u watch the Marshall game closely you will see that Holmes made Zwick look better than he was thus us giving him too much credit, and overall I never felt comfortable as a fan when he was QB and I felt we would drop one that we should win pretty soon if changes were'nt made and sure enough when Northwestern came around it happened, and I don't wanna here all that mumbo jumbo about how our D played , the fact is our O was coming off of the field as fast as they got on it.Don't forget that we had a couple TD's that were not through zwick he may have bee accountable for one, If I recall Holmes ran back a punt for a TD, there was a inteception that put us in pretty good striking distance and to make a long story short we basically put this game on the leg of nugent.
But Zwick did play through an injury in the Alamo Bowl and I respect him for that , but I wasn't blown away by any of his throws before he got hurt, he basically looked the same to me as he did earlier on in the season.
But when Smith was in command I always felt we had a chance no matter who we played, and I also think that he was instrumental on improving TG2 and the O-Line, basically because he is a leader and he made them trust in his abilities, which made them more confident not to mention that Smith actually threw Ginn the ball, to tell you the truth if Zwick had started the whole season we probably would all still be wondering what Ginn was really made of (minus a few punt returns), or could he be a bust but fortunately Smith came on at the right time and Slowly started to turn things around.
After watching both QB's, if you can't see that Smith is better by now, then you have to be bias plain and simple.
Needless to say that if Smith is available for the Miami OH, game he should get the nod.

 

[martinss01]

Zwick had a truckload of INTs. And no you can't count the Indiana pass against Smith (which would not have been picked if you watch the pass, especially not by an IU db, it was too fast), cuz you can't count what ifs against QBs.

ummm... yeah... you can... and should. its called good decision making and putting the ball where it should be. this isn't a one sided statment. you judge both qb's the same way. both qb's have a lot of talent and both made a lot of mistakes.

personally speaking, if you compair zwicks performance vrs. what he had to work with vrs. smiths and what he had to work with. imo things come out pretty even. im sorry but i expect more out of smith when he is standing behind an improved line throwing to holmes, ginn and gonzo than zwick who was throwing to holmes and childress. if you disregard both qb's best and worst games, you have 2 guys who did anything but shine. neither have shown anything resembling consistancy. however, both have shown flashes of brilliance. if smith wasn't sitting out the miami game i would think that the battle for the #1 spot would be extremely wide open with neither guy having a legit edge.

if smith hadn't have made a poor decision he would be a lock flat out no questions.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Troy Smith will be a Heisman candidate, this year! With the weapons at his disposal and his elusiveness he is a ESPN highlight waiting to happen!

I think I'll call you Toastman from now on, 'cuz with all the crack you've been smokin', you're pretty toasted.

 

[Taosman]

You "crack " me up , Milli-vanilli!

 

[strohs]

You "crack " me up , Milli-vanilli!

worst....comback....ever.
Sorry bro, but that was a lame attempt.

 

[Zurp]

Ok.. I think we've beat the on-field performance horse to death. What about off-field? Maybe off-field personalities shouldn't effect who starts, but, then again, maybe it should.

What kind of message is it sending to new players and recruits to show them that you can screw up big-time (by taking money from boosters), and when you come back, you can start, again?

I have to admit, I'm fairly torn. Maybe Smith's 1- or 2-game suspension is enough to show people that breaking the rules gets you in trouble, and maybe Tressel needs to bench smith a bit.

 

[martinss01]

Ok.. I think we've beat the on-field performance horse to death. What about off-field? Maybe off-field personalities shouldn't effect who starts, but, then again, maybe it should.

off the field actions should and often do impact who plays. athletes shouldn't be role models, but welcome to reality. secondly the guys you have on the field can hurt you in increadible ways off. even if you win every single game in a season and win the nc game by 100 million points that DOES NOT mean you will be the nc. why? because one misstep by a player can negate all of that. nc's CAN be taken away if one of your kids who played screwed up. we came real close to that with MoC. these are simple facts. you have to be real cautious in the world of college sports who you allow on the field to represent you. because they are holding your employement status in their hands on far more places than the playing field. coaches and ad's are regularly terminated by actions taken by players OFF the field.

I have to admit, I'm fairly torn. Maybe Smith's 1- or 2-game suspension is enough to show people that breaking the rules gets you in trouble, and maybe Tressel needs to bench smith a bit.

im torn as well. as much adversity as smith worked through and teh success he had against scum, i hate the thought of him becoming an example to everyone over such a foolish mistake. though i do think an example is going to be required at some point. thats a big part of why im trying to keep my mouth shut on the punishment aspect and just let jt determine that one.

im going to be behind whoever starts 100%. but i think your point is very valid and one that the coaches have to factor in. the kids they start are the kids who hold their employement status in their hands. right wrong or indifferent, thats reality.

 

[HangOnSloopy]

I'm tired of all of this QB controversy thing.Why can't we just let the players and the coaches decide who will be the QB.It doesnt really matter who the Qb is to me as long as we win game,thats why they will put the right Qb in.It will be the one that will win us game.So lets stop all of this arguing and bickering and just root for the buckeyes that we all love.



Go Bucks!

 

[BucksinFL]

. Zwick may have had good numbers vs. Marshall, but didn't he throw two deep passes to Holmes? I know it was one, but I think it was two. Those helped his stats tremendously. And he also threw one or two where the defensive backs almost called for a fair catch. Besides, I think I gave him credit for that win.

That would also be like saying "if smith doesnt throw that 67 yarder to to gonzo then"....part of stats are big plays.

YOW!!! Atrocious? Maybe I'm suffering from Michigan-game-amnesia, but that seems to be a harsh and unfair description of Smith's performance. As a matter of fact, I would say that it you're not giving Smith a fair shake in this one and you obviously have a bias for Zwick.

Anyways, as far as workouts go, what is the team up to right now? They don't have practices right now, do they? If there's something organized going on, why aren't there more pictures being released to the public (I was kind of interested to see some Pittman/Haw/Dionte Johnson pics)?

Well, if it werent for Ginn that TD doesn't happen against indiana and its a pick goin the other way. 5, 3 and outs, in a row against purdue. He ditches and runs constantly and until the michigan game didn't really do anything with his run ability. I don't put too much faith into Smith type of QBs that want to ditch and run all the time because you hardly ever if ever win championships with them unless that is the complete style of offense you run such as an option offense which is being abandoned by all the big time schools such as nebraska in favor of a PASSING offense. Smith is a better passer than Vick, but hes not in vicks class as a runner. I would rather have a QB that will sit back and read the defense and shred it...

Smith had MAJOR happy feet even when he had time. You can't look for a place to run and look for a reciever downfield at the same time. There were times I was fustrated with Zwick just like everyone else, but he sure had the worse end of the year to play with that Oline that was awful and no run game and only 1 reciever that was worth a damn. My only problem with Zwick is he has to be more mentally tough and I think he has the ability to bring home a NC.