Why It Is So Frustrating Being a Buckeye Fan

[LordJeffBuck]

Great stuff LJB. Really great stuff. I'll be thinking about your points and conclusions for a while.

Just one question...



It seems that a lot (all of ?) of your analysis and the main conclusion rests on eighty percent number. I've actually read your whole set of posts three times over and I haven't been able to trace back why you chose this particular cut-off point. I realize that some kind of a baseline number has to be used to try and establish which seasons were ones where we were NC contenders, and I realize it's an important figure in terms of our all-time win/loss record, but otherwise, I'm not sure how to process it.

Seems unfair, after all of your writing to pick out this one thing, I know, but I can't help but ask.

Well, here it goes. After the Penn State game this year, I said:

This is Ohio State. There are no moral victories, no good losses, no learning experiences. The Buckeyes are supposed to win 80-90% of their games....

I made that statement in the same "tone" as the current article (partially serious, partially facetious - the reader can assign his own percentages to each category), but after a period of reflection, I thought that I should really analyze my statement in terms of: (1) the objective reality of Buckeye football (winning a lot), and (2) my subjective feelings as a Buckeye fan (not winning enough). So, in that sense the number was arbitrary (my subjective "floor" for a successful season), but my analysis did show that teams that won 80+% of their games in a season (that is, two losses or less in that year) would generally be in national title contention.

Hope that helps....

 

[shetuck]

Well, here it goes. After the Penn State game this year, I said:

I made that statement in the same "tone" as the current article (partially serious, partially facetious - the reader can assign his own percentages to each category), but after a period of reflection, I thought that I should really analyze my statement in terms of: (1) the objective reality of Buckeye football (winning a lot), and (2) my subjective feelings as a Buckeye fan (not winning enough). So, in that sense the number was arbitrary (my subjective "floor" for a successful season), but my analysis did show that teams that won 80+% of their games in a season (that is, two losses or less in that year) would generally be in national title contention.

Hope that helps....

Fair enough...

I guess the thing that niggled at me is the notion that a two-loss team, generally, can / should have an NC (even before the BCS era) if there are credible one-loss-or-better teams out there. For example, even if we didn't have the BCS system, I don't think there's any way that anyone would consider this year's tOSU team NC contenders even if we beat Texas. But, yet, we'd have bested that .800 mark.

I think your analysis and premise go a long way to putting a quantitative underpinning to the *feelings* of frustration. Do you think the bottom line would change if we bumped that cut-off up to include only one-loss-or-better teams?

EDIT: I guess what I'm wondering is how the numbers would shake out if we take out 1972, 1974, 1993, 1995, 2003, 2005 out of the total. So that would mean that we have 2 NCs in 11 seasons. That would put us in the top half of the pack of teams in the bottom of your sixth post with a 18.2% "success" rate. That's a big move... BUT it doesn't take into account what would happen to the other teams if we take out their two-loss seasons. Just a different approach...

 

[powerlifter]

Shocker.

Losing two games this year to two good teams is NOTHING to be ashamed of. If people live in denial of a team being better on that given day,then it's hard to accept a loss.You will never see me post "take away the huge run,and we kept them to 2.3 yards" or anything of that matter.Do you think that's how coach JT motivates players? You can speculate on every play in both directions,and have various conclusions,but it has no real effect on the outcome of a given game. Ohio State always has a great team. I don't expect them to win every game,although I pull for it.Nobody always wins,and never loses.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

EDIT: I guess what I'm wondering is how the numbers would shake out if we take out 1972, 1974, 1993, 1995, 2003, 2005 out of the total. So that would mean that we have 2 NCs in 11 seasons. That would put us in the top half of the pack of teams in the bottom of your sixth post with a 18.2% "success" rate. That's a big move... BUT it doesn't take into account what would happen to the other teams if we take out their two-loss seasons. Just a different approach...

1974 (loss in Rose Bowl with chance at NC), 1993 (loss to Michigan), 1995 (loss to Michigan, loss in Bowl), and 2003 (loss to Michigan) would still hurt because each team had a legitimate chance to play for a national title until the very end. I think that most people would consider 2005 to be a successful year because of the "feel good" wins over Michigan and Notre Dame to end the season. I guess that a lot of the frustration involves the timing of the losses, and who we lost to.

 

[martinss01]

The history itself is outstanding. So was the work put into the piece, as I said. It's not the history, it's the general tone of the article. It explores a lot of very frustrating parts of Buckyeye history, and frustration itself is a downer. No attack was intended.

good response :). i definitely agree that the work ljb put into the post(s) is certainly commendable. not to worry, no attack was assumed on my part. i hope my posts have been viewed the same.

because we've choked away more national championship opportunities than those other schools even dream of getting. those other schools make good on their championship opportunities. we squander them, take them for granted, and don't do them justice...

which teams specifically? 118 teams squander their nc opportunities every year...

I hesitate to bring this up....but......your research and the results that show some evidence of - call it....underachieving

let me guess. tOSU "underachieved" last year too right? lets go ahead and forget the fact that tOSU lost nearly every offensive skill player and more than 90% of their production. lets forget that the year prior the d lost 9 players all of which were drafted. lets also forget that they were picked to finish 3rd in the big ten. but most of all, lets forget the fact that it took the absolute ineptitude of countless teams from each and every conference to allow tOSU to play in the nc game. to the fans of teams who think tOSU should not have been in that game i say this. "tOSU lost their second to last game of the season that year. any other year that is a death sentence. if YOUR team wasn't shittier than an average tOSU squad we wouldn't have been in the nc game in the first place".

so gator, you say tOSU underachieved. how did florida do on the ol over/under achievement scale last year? not trying to be a dick but im not certain i agree with the way you seem to be measuring underachieving. making it to but not winning the nc game is underachieving? personally, i think tOSU WILDLY overachieved last year and very literally most of college football underachieved. its not tOSU's fault so many other teams ranked ahead of them choked not once, but twice HARD. there were a lot of teams better than tOSU last year. each and every one of them including LSU played their way right out of deserving a nc birth. explain to me how a 2 loss team feels they "deserve" anything. again, not trying to be a dick. but i fail to see how making it to the nc game is underachieving. i just don't get it. not even a little bit.

-could be an explanation for the bias you all feel toward the Bucks by the media and other fan bases. Perhaps....perhaps it is an opinion formed by their observing the same failures, the same inability to close the deal over so many years.

this the same bias that led every "expert" to give florida 0 chance of beating tOSU in 06? this the same bias that led many members of the media to pick tOSU over LSU last year? give me a break!! lots of people diss tOSU when the camera is rolling. but when the time comes to place votes... tOSU rarely ever suffers from this so called "bias". sure we can have a pity party over 98. but then, we lost late to an unranked scum lite... sorry but i have a hard time bitching about bias as tOSU plays in yet another bcs game while many teams every bit as deserving if not moreso go to the <insertrandomnamehere> bowl.

Everyone loves dotting the i, TBDBITL, your history, etc....but you get less than you think you deserve insofar as respect for our team's ability to win. Maybe there is a correlation.

and every member of the media would suck joepa's crusty shriveled penis. but how many nc games has penn state played in again? how many nc's does joepa have to his credit?

I do not mean to offend anybody by this, but as someone growing up in non-Big 10 territory, I did not follow you much at all, and what I did seem to remember is how you would seem to lose to either Michigan or the PAc 10 Rose Bowl Rep every year. Now, I know that you did not lose every year. I am not even saying that my recollection is factually correct. I am just saying that to the extent I thought about an "image" I had of Ohio State regarding football, it was that you always had good teams that lost at the end of the year. That was not my "bias", as I had no real interest in big 10 football at all. Perhaps I picked it up from the sports broadcasts where they said "It happened again" after The Game or a Rose Bowl. It was admittedly not a marginally informed view, as I did not follow your seasons closely or at all, nor did I have a vivid memory of your many impressive wins.

no offense taken. but it could also be because noone ever pays attention when the team that is supposed to win a game they personally don't care about does so, don't you think? everyone remembers 07 appy state vrs. scum. noone remembers 05 usc vrs stanford....

I do know this. Beat Texas and come out smoking with TP next year and who knows what will happen. The whole image thing is so short term memory related it is amusing.

bingo. a few years ago we called them chokelahoma. this year they are the single greatest team not coached by the greatest football genius that is fat weiss. no wait... isn't he on the verge of being fired for being a shitty coach? how can that be???

Win a MNC or big bowl game and it is forgotten.

pfffft! won't even take that much. a close game with texas and a win against usc and suddenly tOSU is "BACK!" its all sensationalist hyperbole meant to do nothing more than drum up ratings.

every program that has been successful for any period of time has a history of "misses" just like ours. only 1 team can win a nc per year. anyone who doesn't realize how much dumb luck alone plays into that has likely never played sports at any level.

Originally Posted by LordJeffBuck
There are no moral victories, no good losses, no learning experiences.

ljb, this is probably the strangest thing i have ever heard anyone say. you honestly believe this is true? is there a specific level at which this comes into affect? or is this just the way it is from birth??

 

[shetuck]

ljb, this is probably the strangest thing i have ever heard anyone say. you honestly believe this is true? is there a specific level at which this comes into affect? or is this just the way it is from birth??

You're taking his comment out of context.

 

[martinss01]

You're taking LJB's comment out of context.

thats true, i am taking the comment a little out of context. but he has made the statement more than once now and done so in regards to a college football team with more than a handful of teenagers contributing. im not really looking to argue the point, but i am curious what the extent of his opinion is. is this a belief related only to tOSU football? to all football? to sport? to life in general? certain levels of maturity or all encompasing? im not passing judgement nor am i looking to. im simply interested in understanding what it is he believes and why.

 

[shetuck]

thats true, i am taking the comment a little out of context. but he has made the statement more than once now and done so in regards to a college football team with more than a handful of teenagers contributing. im not really looking to argue the point, but i am curious what the extent of his opinion is. is this a belief related only to tOSU football? to all football? to sport? to life in general? certain levels of maturity or all encompasing? im not passing judgement nor am i looking to. im simply interested in understanding what it is he believes and why.

He can answer for himself... but to me the sentiment resonates in relation to (and reflects on) the high expectations we have formed as fans; hence the feelings of frustration and disappointment that he is trying to cast in some tangible/concrete light.

 

[Steve19]

 

[lvbuckeye]

I hesitate to bring this up....but......your research and the results that show some evidence of - call it....underachieving -could be an explanation for the bias you all feel toward the Bucks by the media and other fan bases. Perhaps....perhaps it is an opinion formed by their observing the same failures, the same inability to close the deal over so many years.

I guess I am saying that one hypothetical explanation for the "bias" is that third parties have in some sense processed the same stats that Jeff so meticulously compiled and have come up with an opinion that is unfavorable as it relates to your ability to close the deal. Everyone loves dotting the i, TBDBITL, your history, etc....but you get less than you think you deserve insofar as respect for our team's ability to win. Maybe there is a correlation.

I do not mean to offend anybody by this, but as someone growing up in non-Big 10 territory, I did not follow you much at all, and what I did seem to remember is how you would seem to lose to either Michigan or the PAc 10 Rose Bowl Rep every year. Now, I know that you did not lose every year. I am not even saying that my recollection is factually correct. I am just saying that to the extent I thought about an "image" I had of Ohio State regarding football, it was that you always had good teams that lost at the end of the year. That was not my "bias", as I had no real interest in big 10 football at all. Perhaps I picked it up from the sports broadcasts where they said "It happened again" after The Game or a Rose Bowl. It was admittedly not a marginally informed view, as I did not follow your seasons closely or at all, nor did I have a vivid memory of your many impressive wins.

Again, as Jeff is being down right honest here, I shared what was my non-interested impression of the program that I had in the 70s through the 90s. Perhaps the Cooper years and the recent three big disappointment games have given you a rep that is worse than it should be. But it is also just possible that the bias is not as arbitrary as it seems when you break it down like Jeff did.

I do know this. Beat Texas and come out smoking with TP next year and who knows what will happen. The whole image thing is so short term memory related it is amusing. Win a MNC or big bowl game and it is forgotten. Forget the past losses, you are about to have three years of outstanding successes that should wipe clean the bias of even the most jaded fan. After all, Florida is hardly a long term success. "Wait till next year!" was our cry. That changed in just two decades. Now we get the benefit of the doubt because we stepped up big in big games recently.

The fix starts with Texas.

what kills me is the fact the the Gators (for example) weren't even on the national map until about 25 years ago, have never gone undefeated, and are about to win their 3rd national title in 13 years with what essentially amounts a 'do-over' in each of those championship seasons. i'm not asking for a break (yeah, i am), but shit. can we catch one one time, please? even the 2002 title is not without controversy. can an Ohio fan (of ANY team in any sport) please win an undisputed title, please?

 

[Gatorubet]

what kills me is the fact the the Gators (for example) weren't even on the national map until about 25 years ago, have never gone undefeated, and are about to win their 3rd national title in 13 years with what essentially amounts a 'do-over' in each of those championship seasons. i'm not asking for a break (yeah, i am), but shit. can we catch one one time, please? even the 2002 title is not without controversy. can an Ohio fan (of ANY team in any sport) please win an undisputed title, please?

The facts of the '96 Championship were unique, I admit. But the Sugar Bowl record whipping we put on them was all that was within our power to do at the time.

I do not think that our impressive win over an outstanding Buckeye Team in Jan '07, or (if we manage it) a win over our second BCS Number 1 ranked team in a row constitutes a "do-over". We can simply disagree.

Now, the fact that our star has risen the last 25 years is something we hear from the Oklahomas and Bamas and tOSUs of the world whenever we meet. Our perspective is that you might as well be Brown or Harvard beating their chest. Other than a nice thing for octogenarian alumni to talk about, wins that have the most importance are in the here and now.

 

[Dryden]

I hesitate to bring this up....but......your research and the results that show some evidence of - call it....underachieving -could be an explanation for the bias you all feel toward the Bucks by the media and other fan bases. Perhaps....perhaps it is an opinion formed by their observing the same failures, the same inability to close the deal over so many years.

I guess I am saying that one hypothetical explanation for the "bias" is that third parties have in some sense processed the same stats that Jeff so meticulously compiled and have come up with an opinion that is unfavorable as it relates to your ability to close the deal. Everyone loves dotting the i, TBDBITL, your history, etc....but you get less than you think you deserve insofar as respect for our team's ability to win. Maybe there is a correlation.

I do not mean to offend anybody by this, but as someone growing up in non-Big 10 territory, I did not follow you much at all, and what I did seem to remember is how you would seem to lose to either Michigan or the PAc 10 Rose Bowl Rep every year. Now, I know that you did not lose every year. I am not even saying that my recollection is factually correct. I am just saying that to the extent I thought about an "image" I had of Ohio State regarding football, it was that you always had good teams that lost at the end of the year. That was not my "bias", as I had no real interest in big 10 football at all. Perhaps I picked it up from the sports broadcasts where they said "It happened again" after The Game or a Rose Bowl. It was admittedly not a marginally informed view, as I did not follow your seasons closely or at all, nor did I have a vivid memory of your many impressive wins.

Again, as Jeff is being down right honest here, I shared what was my non-interested impression of the program that I had in the 70s through the 90s. Perhaps the Cooper years and the recent three big disappointment games have given you a rep that is worse than it should be. But it is also just possible that the bias is not as arbitrary as it seems when you break it down like Jeff did.

I do know this. Beat Texas and come out smoking with TP next year and who knows what will happen. The whole image thing is so short term memory related it is amusing. Win a MNC or big bowl game and it is forgotten. Forget the past losses, you are about to have three years of outstanding successes that should wipe clean the bias of even the most jaded fan. After all, Florida is hardly a long term success. "Wait till next year!" was our cry. That changed in just two decades. Now we get the benefit of the doubt because we stepped up big in big games recently.

The fix starts with Texas.

I agree with all of this, and would even take it a step further in that, given the framework that you've got to be over .800 winning % to even have a chance for the title (unless you're Notre Dame), beyond that who gets the opportunity at the title is fabricated by the whims of poll voters (or US Presidents), even with the BCS and computers.

So, you could also say that a large part of the bias is centered on the fact that the voters continue to give OSU opportunities by even arranging title games for OSU to participate in, and OSU routinely does nothing with it.

I haven't bothered to read any Boise St message boards over the past two weeks. How pissed off are they that we took 'their' BCS spot? :tongue2:

 

[martinss01]

He can answer for himself... but to me the sentiment resonates in relation to (and reflects on) the high expectations we have formed as fans; hence the feelings of frustration and disappointment that he is trying to cast in some tangible/concrete light.

ill grant you that, however this is not the first post he has made this statement in. infact, he simply quoted himself here from the previous thread.

even the 2002 title is not without controversy. can an Ohio fan (of ANY team in any sport) please win an undisputed title, please?

controversy from whom? 3 sports writers desperate for readers? 2 play by play analysts who don't know the rules? if a psychotic in denver declared your marriage invalid because he alone speaks for god, would that be a valid dispute upon your marriage? i think some of you waste way too much energy on the opinions of persons who have little to no value.

ANYONE who disputes our title in 02 is an ignorant fool who knows nothing of the sport.

 

[muffler dragon]

Such an interesting piece, LJB. Excellent work.

My only comment is that my frustration is more temporal than perpetual ,and I rarely let it linger into future considerations.

I make the choice to cherish each season individually for all that it is (good and bad).

Btw, who is this "Cooper" that you speak of? I don't recall a coach at tOSU by that name.

 

[lvbuckeye]

which teams specifically? 118 teams squander their nc opportunities every year...

the other teams on the 80%+ list. off the top of my head, other than the Buckeyes only Miami has played for the title 9 times, and they've won 5... and then there are those 5 other times where the Buckeyes have lost the game that would have put them in the title game. 14 championship opportunities? yup, you were right about 118 teams wishing they were in Ohio State's shoes. the thing is, when those other teams DO get in them, they make the most of it.

edit: i will say, that the "national championship or bust" mentality is a fairly recent phenomena. used to be, beating TSUN and winning the Big Ten were all that mattered. in those terms, the Buckeyes have been on a roll like never before. i was talking to some guy the other day who commented on my Ohio State jacket, and he said something like "tough season this year, huh?" and i just laughed and said, "how spoiled are we, when we win 10 games and go to a BCS bowl, and it's a 'down' year?"

perspective.