Wauseon plant to open Monday for 110-mpg car engines

[MaxBuck]

Every few months there is a story about an inventor who seems to think it is as easy to disobey a law of thermodynamics as it is to jaywalk. And there is frequently some dimbulb news outlet who gullibly reports the nonsense as "fact."

This is bull[censored], pure and simple. I agree with those who say that significant improvements in efficiency are possible but very costly. This assumption that the worldwide auto industry has somehow colluded to suppress fuel efficiency? That's just more of this:

 

[scott91575]

Every few months there is a story about an inventor who seems to think it is as easy to disobey a law of thermodynamics as it is to jaywalk. And there is frequently some dimbulb news outlet who gullibly reports the nonsense as "fact."

This is bull[censored], pure and simple. I agree with those who say that significant improvements in efficiency are possible but very costly. This assumption that the worldwide auto industry has somehow colluded to suppress fuel efficiency? That's just more of this:

In my house you will obey the laws of thermodynamics!!!!

 

[cincibuck]

/Users/forrestbrandt/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Originals/2009/May 11, 2009/DSCF0115.JPG

In early May, while in Germany, I rented this little 100 class Mercedes. Diesel, 50 MPG, a bit of diesel lag on acceleration that I quickly learned to adjust for. very comfortable seats that were fully adjustable. An amazing car, crammed full of electronics you don't expect in a little sedan. 5 speed auto that downshifted perfectly as I drove up and down the hills of Bavaria. Sensors that gave me a visual and audio alert to anything close to the bumpers or the sides of the car. It bagan to rain and before I could find the wiper switch they came on and adjusted up and down with the rate of rain. I have no idea what the car cost, but it isn't on their import list. It was years ahead of anything the Big 3 are offering in the 50 MPG range.

 

[scott91575]

/Users/forrestbrandt/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Originals/2009/May 11, 2009/DSCF0115.JPG

In early May, while in Germany, I rented this little 100 class Mercedes. Diesel, 50 MPG, a bit of diesel lag on acceleration that I quickly learned to adjust for. very comfortable seats that were fully adjustable. An amazing car, crammed full of electronics you don't expect in a little sedan. 5 speed auto that downshifted perfectly as I drove up and down the hills of Bavaria. Sensors that gave me a visual and audio alert to anything close to the bumpers or the sides of the car. It bagan to rain and before I could find the wiper switch they came on and adjusted up and down with the rate of rain. I have no idea what the car cost, but it isn't on their import list. It was years ahead of anything the Big 3 are offering in the 50 MPG range.

They cost a lot, and my Chrysler has automatic wipers (nothing new under the sun). Trust me, they are not years ahead of anything the big 3 offers. Their diesels are nice, but there is a reason most of them are sold only in Europe - gas prices and subsidizing of diesel prices. In Europe small cars does not equal cheap car. Yet you pay for it. Those cars do not sell in this country. Every time Mercedes or any other car manufacturer tries to sell those types of cars in the US it's a horrible failure (plus our deisel emmisions standards are much tougher than Europe and increases diesel costs even more).

BTW...not sure if you drove an A class, B class, or C class (your link does not work). Yet an A class, about the size of a Chevy Aveo, with a 2L diesel (the A 160 CDI) would cost about $26,000. The B 180 CDI, more like the size of a PT Cruiser, would cost about $30,000. Those cars get great mpg, but their performance in 0-60 mph is in the 11-12 second range. So no real perfromance increase, better mpg, but $10,000+ more expensive. No real market for those vehicles here.

No offense, but I laugh at people who think German cars have some amazing technology. Most of the same stuff is on US cars (especially Cadillac and Lincoln). People just don't know it. Trust me, I spent 10 years working for a German company with their supposed amazing technology. It's nothing special.

FTR...I spent about a week or two driving an A class. Huge pile of crap.

 

[cincibuck]

They cost a lot, and my Chrysler has automatic wipers (nothing new under the sun). Trust me, they are not years ahead of anything the big 3 offers. Their diesels are nice, but there is a reason most of them are sold only in Europe - gas prices and subsidizing of diesel prices. In Europe small cars does not equal cheap car. Yet you pay for it. Those cars do not sell in this country. Every time Mercedes or any other car manufacturer tries to sell those types of cars in the US it's a horrible failure (plus our deisel emmisions standards are much tougher than Europe and increases diesel costs even more).

BTW...not sure if you drove an A class, B class, or C class (your link does not work). Yet an A class, about the size of a Chevy Aveo, with a 2L diesel (the A 160 CDI) would cost about $26,000. The B 180 CDI, more like the size of a PT Cruiser, would cost about $30,000. Those cars get great mpg, but their performance in 0-60 mph is in the 11-12 second range. So no real perfromance increase, better mpg, but $10,000+ more expensive. No real market for those vehicles here.

No offense, but I laugh at people who think German cars have some amazing technology. Most of the same stuff is on US cars (especially Cadillac and Lincoln). People just don't know it. Trust me, I spent 10 years working for a German company with their supposed amazing technology. It's nothing special.

FTR...I spent about a week or two driving an A class. Huge pile of crap.

It was in the 100 A series. My point was that this was on a small car, not a lincoln, Chrysler, or Cadillac. The fit and finish was superb. The interior noise level was excellent. The match between motor and transmission was dead on. Take a look at a Big 3 subcompact and you just don't see that tech on them. I'm sure the car was more expensive than most Euro sub compacts.

I had no idea what the cost of the car would be as MB prices for their line in Europe are all over the place. Like GM they want to have something to offer at all price levels. I suspected that this one would be higher than most but the 10K figure surprises me.

Don't know which German manufacturer you worked for, but I owned an Audi A - 6 for 7 years and put a great many happy miles on it. While it was no more sophisticated than a comparable US car, the road handling, braking and seating was far superior to what I experienced in Big 3 products. I especially appreciated the difference on long trips, but yeah, I paid about 3 to 5K more to own an Audi than I would have for a comparable Big 3 car. I felt it was worth the difference.

 

[scott91575]

It was in the 100 A series. My point was that this was on a small car, not a lincoln, Chrysler, or Cadillac. The fit and finish was superb. The interior noise level was excellent. The match between motor and transmission was dead on. Take a look at a Big 3 subcompact and you just don't see that tech on them. I'm sure the car was more expensive than most Euro sub compacts.

I had no idea what the cost of the car would be as MB prices for their line in Europe are all over the place. Like GM they want to have something to offer at all price levels. I suspected that this one would be higher than most but the 10K figure surprises me.

Don't know which German manufacturer you worked for, but I owned an Audi A - 6 for 7 years and put a great many happy miles on it. While it was no more sophisticated than a comparable US car, the road handling, braking and seating was far superior to what I experienced in Big 3 products. I especially appreciated the difference on long trips, but yeah, I paid about 3 to 5K more to own an Audi than I would have for a comparable Big 3 car. I felt it was worth the difference.

The thing is Ford and GM do offer similar cars....in Europe. The Opels (although recently no longer GM) and Fords have more luxury features on small cars. It has nothing to do with the manufacturers, it has to do with the marketplace. There is a reason the A class is not sold here. Small luxury cars do not sell in the US. As for the 10 grand number, you can go to the international MB website and price them out. I went to the UK version since I like English, but you will find they are similar prices throughout Europe. If you change to a gas version it does lower the price, yet you get worse gas mileage.

 

[martinss01]

The thing is Ford and GM do offer similar cars....in Europe. The Opels (although recently no longer GM) and Fords have more luxury features on small cars. It has nothing to do with the manufacturers, it has to do with the marketplace. There is a reason the A class is not sold here. Small luxury cars do not sell in the US. As for the 10 grand number, you can go to the international MB website and price them out. I went to the UK version since I like English, but you will find they are similar prices throughout Europe. If you change to a gas version it does lower the price, yet you get worse gas mileage.

100% correct sir. this is the bit people don't seem to get. there is a HUGE difference between what car manufacturers actually make and what they offer on a regional basis. ford and chevy both have at least at one point had a 50+mpg car on the market. they were just never offered here. i believe the ford fiesta in europe is getting 65+mpg. ford still sells f150's with manuals in other countries. chevy for the longest time was producing a monte carlo in saudi arabia with the same engine found in the vette. alot of the high performance japanese cars are not offered here either. the oddest thing is in most cases you can't even order these cars in the states.

you don't realize how much parity US auto manufacturers have with both europe and asia until you start looking at what they offer overseas. its eye opening, thats for sure.

an article on the fiesta:
The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have - BusinessWeek

BTW...not sure if you drove an A class, B class, or C class (your link does not work). Yet an A class, about the size of a Chevy Aveo, with a 2L diesel (the A 160 CDI) would cost about $26,000. The B 180 CDI, more like the size of a PT Cruiser, would cost about $30,000. Those cars get great mpg, but their performance in 0-60 mph is in the 11-12 second range. So no real perfromance increase, better mpg, but $10,000+ more expensive. No real market for those vehicles here.

thats pretty much the conversation in a nutshell.

 

[jlb1705]

Have they made a subcompact in Europe that goes with this chalice?:

Until they do I'll stick with Cadillacs thank you very much.

 

[MaxBuck]

Have they made a subcompact in Europe that goes with this chalice?:

Until they do I'll stick with Cadillacs thank you very much.

Fo' shizzle.

 

[jimotis4heisman]

/Users/forrestbrandt/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Originals/2009/May 11, 2009/DSCF0115.JPG

In early May, while in Germany, I rented this little 100 class Mercedes. Diesel, 50 MPG, a bit of diesel lag on acceleration that I quickly learned to adjust for. very comfortable seats that were fully adjustable. An amazing car, crammed full of electronics you don't expect in a little sedan. 5 speed auto that downshifted perfectly as I drove up and down the hills of Bavaria. Sensors that gave me a visual and audio alert to anything close to the bumpers or the sides of the car. It bagan to rain and before I could find the wiper switch they came on and adjusted up and down with the rate of rain. I have no idea what the car cost, but it isn't on their import list. It was years ahead of anything the Big 3 are offering in the 50 MPG range.

i dont think it meets us sulfur emission regs. the same with the ford fiesta. us have stricter regs on non carbon emissions that euro zone typically. like scott said for 26k i think you can get a better car. then again typically eurozone driving (sans autoban) is differnt than what i use my car for. i want a hwy cruiser not a small city/rural transporter.

 

[scott91575]

i dont think it meets us sulfur emission regs. the same with the ford fiesta. us have stricter regs on non carbon emissions that euro zone typically. like scott said for 26k i think you can get a better car. then again typically eurozone driving (sans autoban) is differnt than what i use my car for. i want a hwy cruiser not a small city/rural transporter.

The other problem is upcoming NOx emission standards. That adds more cost on diesels because that requires the addition of a urea system. Not only is it more up front cost, but you need to recharge the system every 12,000 or so miles to stay in compliance. Of course if you are in a state that doesn't check emissions I doubt too many people will be lining up to refill their urea tank (and no, you cannot just [censored] in it).

What ticks me off the most is the consumer in the US drove all of this, not the automakers. The reason why European companies have these type of cars is their governments manipulated demand. They artificially increased gas prices, subsidize diesel prices, and then allow for easier emission standards on diesels. In the US, people would cry bloody murder if our government did that. In the mean time people cry for strict emission standards. So you get the market in the US. Then what happens when things change, you blame the auto manufacturers for not giving you something you never asked for. Then the government, instead of pointing the finger at the consumer (the voting public - the ones actually causing it all), decides to attack the manufacturers as some sort of evil. They suddenly come up with supply manipulation - once again, heaven forbid you point the finger at the consumer. The only reason Japanese were ready for this type of thing is their market was already there, and their government provided funding for hybrid research. They also have a strong marketplace for fuel efficient gas vehicles. They are not some amazing forward thinkers. They already were in that market and have government research backing. Hell, they started making big trucks, minivans, and SUV's that got just as bad if not worse fuel economy that the US counterparts. Same thing with the Europeans. The US marketplace has only one person to blame for what is offered here, and it is themselves. Yet our whole society is based on a lack of accountability. So instead of saying "hey, maybe we should have been more practical" or "let's manipulate demand to create a stable marketplace and let the manufacturers work to meet it" (like is done elsewhere), everyone points the finger at the big bad auto companies and force them to change by manipulating supply. That way the consumer can bitch they are not getting what they want, the automakers are all stupid, and people can enjoy the bliss of ignorance. The US automakers are no less smart. They were just stuck in their main marketplace that switched demand quickly, while foreign automakers (also hurt, but not as bad) had all that stuff in place due demand manipulation. If you keep a stable demand in a market that has long lead times for change, things are much more stable. Of course the death blow was the credit market, but that is a whole other story.

 

[cincibuck]

The reason why European companies have these type of cars is their governments manipulated demand.

And our government hasn't? Who keeps up spending for highways? Who created tax incentives to buy SUVs? Whose foreign/military policy has attempted to assure low price oil? Who decided to favor air and auto over rail? Who created most of our towns and cities in such a way as to make it all but impossible to get around without a car?

Our government has marketed the automobile and spent trillions to help boost a car driven society and economy by subsidizing all that automobile travel needs to be successful.

 

[mooktarr]

Gas demand dropped about 7% last year and that caused the $4. prices we had at one time. They had to pay their operating costs. Just sayin.

 

[cincibuck]

Gas demand dropped about 7% last year and that caused the $4. prices we had at one time. They had to pay their operating costs. Just sayin.

And not the rising demand for gas in China, India, South America and the continuing rise in Europe? Sorry, don't buy that one bit. Places that used very little oil per person through the 80s and 90s are coming 'on line' in a hurry -- supply and demand, pure and simple.

 

[Taosman]

Americans need to do what we have always done best...invent!
Become the world leader in green technologies. And in doing so it will completely change our political dynamic in the world.
If we don't we will be just a fading power like the UK and France. And we doom thousands of fine young American women and men to fighting oil wars.