ttun basketball (Juwan out, Dusty May in)

[zwem]

That is a complete strawman. You are creating and defeating an argument that no sane person is even making.

The cheating is forming a team of collective talent you would not otherwise been able to assemble without cheating (paying money for them) and therefore does indeed negate any on the field/court team performance. Of course the superior talent you obtained by cheating is going to perform well. How incompetent would you have to be to cheat and still lose? Oh wait.

As far as the Fab5 goes it shows what a complete lack of heart or winning mentality they had when tsun is able to buy the best talent available in CBB at the time and still not win [Mark May]. At least Auburn has a trophy (temporarily) to show for selling their collective soul.

I was thinking that when I was posting but here is the kicker and opens up a new can of worms. How about the teams that don't get caught or have never been caught. You can't tell me that every top program in the country hasn't convinced certain kids to come to their school by "certain means".

Didn't matter where Chris Webber or Jalen Rose went. Did all 5 guys coming to Michigan affect the team. yes it did, I agree with you there. Did it affect their talent level. Probably not. It still doesn't diminish that they were talented players. However, It brings down their character level.

 

[Buckeye86]

If you can explain how taking money can diminish an athlete's skill level I''m all ears. It diminishes their character but not their talent.

As far as the cheap shot on Michigan football. You can start at the 50s if you want and still find Michigan as one the top winning programs in the country. Past decade has been rough, but from 1970-1999 Michigan was 3rd in wins and 2nd in winning %. I know most buckeye fans think that Michigan was only good "back in the day" but whatever. Michigan doesn't have the championships to show for it, then again Ohio State only has 1 in the past 40 years. Still doesn't diminish what they have done and still see them as an elite program.

I see Michigan as an elite program still, an elite program that is a helluva lot of fun taking "cheap shots" at. Especially when you pound your chest about when your team was "actually good"... a level that was achieved through cheating.

So, sure, they were talented. Hang your hat on that if it makes you feel better.

 

[BB73]

The way I understand it, with cash advances and all, they had A WHOLE LOT more than spiffy shorts & socks going for them.

Yeah. Ed Martin gave TSUN bballers some serious cash - in the hundreds of thousands.

I was referring to their so-called popularity at the time, it was based on their 'hip' (-hop) factor, but they never earned anything on the court besides NCAA regionals. And that has continued throughout their pro careers.

It's just one other reason to root against the Heat this year - Juwan Howard is sitting on the end of that bench, just hoping he can get a ring before he's forced to retire. He's the last chance for any of the five guys to win a championship at the collegiate or NBA level.

 

[zwem]

I see Michigan as an elite program still, an elite program that is a helluva lot of fun taking "cheap shots" at. Especially when you pound your chest about when your team was "actually good"... a level that was achieved through cheating.

So, sure, they were talented. Hang your hat on that if it makes you feel better.

I didn't pound my chest. I just said they were good and nothing more. It doesn't make me feel better cause I really could give a shit. Keep assuming though.

 

[Jaxbuck]

I was thinking that when I was posting but here is the kicker and opens up a new can of worms. How about the teams that don't get caught or have never been caught. You can't tell me that every top program in the country hasn't convinced certain kids to come to their school by "certain means".

Not a can of worms at all. A) it's pure speculation mixed with "everybody else does it" rationalization. B) Even if it fairly widespread then obviously those caught doing it are cheating on a scale others are not.

Didn't matter where Chris Webber or Jalen Rose went. Did all 5 guys coming to Michigan affect the team. yes it did, I agree with you there. Did it affect their talent level. Probably not. It still doesn't diminish that they were talented players. However, It brings down their character level.

Of course it doesn't affect the individual talent, but it clearly affects the aggregate team talent level and since we are talking team sports that's all that matters.

No one admires the talent of a little league all star team when they find out it was a bunch of 13 year olds vs a bunch of 10 year olds. Its cheating, it diminishes the on field accomplishments of the group as a whole as well as the charachter of all involved.

 

[Buckeye86]

I didn't pound my chest. I just said they were good and nothing more. It doesn't make me feel better cause I really could give a shit. Keep assuming though.

You may not have pounded your chest, but this is an Ohio State website. Did you expect people to join in on the fond reminiscing?

Being overly confrontational is a deeply embedded response when confronted with maize and blue.

 

[WolverineMike]

why are the other 4 getting lumped in with Webber? They were never found guilty of anything to my knowledge.


that was a fun time though in college bball. regardless. watching the Fab 5 go up against Jimmy Jackson and Funderburke. Man, I couldn't get enough of that

 

[zwem]

B) Even if it fairly widespread then obviously those caught doing it are cheating on a scale others are not.

There are different scales but cheating is still cheating. It's not fair but it is what it is.

 

[Jaxbuck]

There are different scales but cheating is still cheating. It's not fair but it is what it is.

Besides wishing it so, what proof is there that everyone else was cheating and tsun was the only school caught?

 

[zwem]

You may not have pounded your chest, but this is an Ohio State website. Did you expect people to join in on the fond reminiscing?

Being overly confrontational is a deeply embedded response when confronted with maize and blue.

Nope I didn't expect any of that and you should know that 86 which deep down I'm sure you do. I just said they were good during that time.

 

[zwem]

Besides wishing it so, what proof is there that everyone else was cheating and tsun was the only school caught?

I don't wish it. I really wish all the point shaving, people buying recruits, handing out money, etc would stop. There isn't any proof. To say it doesn't happen though is being naive. Michigan got what it deserved and haven't been the same since. To be honest I hate Webber and he couldn't hold a candle to a guy like Glen Rice.

 

[Buckeye86]

I just said they were good during that time.

they were good with a huge asterisk which you failed to mention, that is what got us into this whole mess

 

[Jaxbuck]

I really wish all the point shaving, people buying recruits, handing out money, etc would stop. There isn't any proof. To say it doesn't happen though is being naive.

Probably but to keep bringing it up to diminish what the Fab 5 got caught doing is disingenuous at best.

 

[BB73]

why are the other 4 getting lumped in with Webber? They were never found guilty of anything to my knowledge.

In terms of getting cash from Ed Martin, Webber was the only one of the 1991 recruits that received some of the $616,000 that Martin admitted to the Feds that he'd dished out - Maurice Taylor, Robert 'Tractor' Traylor, and former Big Ten 3-point career leader Louis Bullock were the others that shared in that cash.

Ed Martin dying shortly before Webber's trial was due to start probably prevented Webber from spending some time in jail for perjury and obstruction of justice.

But he wore long pants and dark socks, so he had that going for him, along with the zero Big Ten, NCAA and NBA titles.

 

[WolverineMike]

In terms of getting cash from Ed Martin, Webber was the only one of the 1991 recruits that received some of the $616,000 - Maurice Taylor, Robert 'Tractor' Traylor, and former Big Ten 3-point career leader Louis Bullock were the others that shared in that cash.

Ed Martin dying shortly before Webber's trial was due to start probably prevented Webber from spending some time in jail for perjury and obstruction of justice.

But he wore long pants and dark socks, so he had that going for him, along with the zero Big Ten, NCAA and NBA titles.

i'll bet he'll still end up in the NBA hall of fame. dang was he good there for awhile.

oh well. to my point, I just hate to see the other Fab Fivers gets lumped in to being called "dirty" when Webber was the only one they ever found anything on. That's all i'm saying.


the ESPN special should be good, but I don't how much they'll really get into the scandal. I mean, Jalen's production company worked on it, so I have a feeling it won't be painting them in to bad a light.