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- Thread starter BB73
- Start date
Absolutely needs to be indoors. I get it, you’re tough like Green Bay - but so you want to win?
They also don’t do their selves any favor with lackluster linemen, knowing they need a strong front for running the rock Oct-Dec.
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sparcboxbuck
What happened to my ¤cash?
No shit......
I can say that I’m very glad to be out of that stadium. Not exaggerating, there were more than a few times while standing that the wind blew me off balance. I’m sure that they showed in the game that when placing the ball, there were times that it frick’n blew away from the center.
That shit was zero fun to be in, let alone try to play in.
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I don't understand any of the hand wringing about the defense. Last year's defense would've given up at least 10 looooooooong runs. Probably for TDs.
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Systems_id
Head Coach
Nah last year's rush defense only got gashed against decent to good run offenses i.e. Minnesota, Oregon, SCUM, and Utah. They never gave up 200 rushing yards to a rushing team near as bad as Northwestern even in close games.
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Onebuckfan
classof76
Our OL great pass blocking but no leverage in the run game disappointing.
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cdiddy70
Hall of Fame
I feel like we’ve focused on the run offense with good reason.
But I’m as concerned about the run defense.
Even though NW ran it 59 times for under 4.0 per tote I thought it generally sucked.
We had to know they had no chance to move the ball in the air given they suck and the conditions. How could we not have totally shut it down?
What’s going on? We are fairly healthy in the front 7.
Im starting to get vibe’s Michigan is going to what they did last year to us unless the weather is pristine.
side bar: I thought Gaoete played with some downhill force when he was in. On the flip side I thought Simon struggled to get off blocks.
But I’m as concerned about the run defense.
Even though NW ran it 59 times for under 4.0 per tote I thought it generally sucked.
We had to know they had no chance to move the ball in the air given they suck and the conditions. How could we not have totally shut it down?
What’s going on? We are fairly healthy in the front 7.
Im starting to get vibe’s Michigan is going to what they did last year to us unless the weather is pristine.
side bar: I thought Gaoete played with some downhill force when he was in. On the flip side I thought Simon struggled to get off blocks.
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I may or may not write a more detailed recap tomorrow morning. Probably not, because this game is best forgotten as soon as possible.
1. This game reminded me most of the 2006 road game at Illinois. The weather was similar - 49 degrees and 15 mph winds, which probably seemed more like 30 mph in the wind tunnel that is Memorial Stadium. Future Heisman winner Troy Smith was 13/23 (.565) for 108 yards (4.7 yd/att), 0 TDs, and an INT. The Buckeye offense as a whole managed to grind out only 224 yards on 70 plays (3.2 yd/play). Led by linebacker J Leman (19 tackles, 3.5 TFL, a sack, and a forced fumble), Illinois had 3 sacks, 12 TFLs, 6 QBHs, 3 PBUs, and forced 2 turnovers. Despite the sloppy play against a 2-8 team, the Buckeyes held on to win 17-10 to improve to 10-0 on the season and keep their national title hopes alive (they would go on to crush Northwestern and edge Michigan in the Game of the Century to finish as undisputed Big Ten champs and regular season national champions). So one bad game in bad weather against a bad team won't necessarily derail this team's title aspirations. But a similar performance against a better team certainly will.
2. I posted the following chart and analysis at halftime. I have updated the numbers to reflect the entire NW game:
In 2014, Ohio State was basically a zone-read running team with J.T. Barrett at the helm. When Barrett got injured in the 4th quarter of the Michigan game, he was replaced by Cardale Jones, who was not well-suited to run a zone-read scheme (in fact he was pretty awful at running zone-read - witness his botched hand off in the National Championship game for the most egregious example). With zone-read essentially off the table, Urban Meyer and Tom Herman created a power running attack that led the Buckeyes to a National Championship behind their third-string quarterback.
After Barrett was lost for the remainder of the season with an injury, Ezekiel Elliott played 13 quarters of football with Cardale Jones as his quarterback. During those 13 quarters (one against Michigan to end the regular season, four each against Wisconsin, Alabama, and Oregon in the postseason), Zeke had 79 carries for 746 yards (9.4 average per carry; 224 average per game) and 9 touchdowns, a truly historic run that will likely never be matched. Although Zeke was probably better than TreVeyon Henderson and Miyan Williams combined, the current Buckeye staff can learn a few tricks from their national champion predecessors on how to craft a power running attack from a spread look with a QB who doesn't like to run (although as we saw today he is perfectly capable of doing so).
First, I will note that Miyan Williams seems too slow to run the outside zone play that Ryan Day favors; The quicker Henderson, who was absent from today's game, seems much better suited for OZ with his ability to find and hit a crease before it closes or to bounce outside. Williams, however, with his size and straight-ahead running style would be a natural fit for a power running attack.
To follow will be Youtube videos of Zeke Elliott's performances in the 2014 Michigan, Wisconsin, Alabama, and Oregon games, with commentary from me. Please remember that I am not a coach and that I don't claim to be a football expert in any way, shape, or form. I will describe what happens on the various plays in layman's terms.
The only Zeke run worth mentioning occurs at 6:20 of the video. Jones is in the shotgun, with Jalin Marshall on his left and Zeke on his right. The TE motions right to left and sets as an H-back, then "wham" blocks right. Marshall shows traditional sweep action right, Zeke takes handoff left on the counter action, with Jones continuing right to sell the sweep. Zeke finds a crease, breaks a tackle, and takes it to the house from 44 yards out. I will call this the Michigan play.
With Cardale Jones finding Devin Smith on three long touchdowns (39, 42, and 44 yards) and the defense pitching a shutout, Ohio State didn't need much creativity in their running attack.
At 0:18, Ohio State runs a variation of the counter trey (or Dave), with the C and LT pulling left. It's an interesting concept and it worked fairly well on that play, but Ohio State would find better options for its power running attack.
Wisconsin's defense was undersized and slow (typical for the Big Ten then and now). Because such defenses work best (if they work at all) by out-scheming the opposing offense, the best way to attack such a defense is with quick hitting plays that don't allow for the defense to set its scheme (re-watch this year's Iowa and Penn State games to see what I'm talking about). At 1:11 we get such a quick hitter, with the H-back lined up right, whams left, Zeke finds the crease straight up the middle and goes for 12 yards. The very next play is the exact same play except with the H-back lined up left and whamming right; Zeke again finds the crease (partially caused by a pretty blatant hold by center Jacoby Boren - B1G officials missed one in our favor for once) and takes it 81 yards for the score. Two quick power runs, seven points. I will call this the Wisconsin play.
At 2:21, Urban Meyer goes deep into his bag of tricks and extracts a version of the Percy Harvin play that was so successful at Florida. In the Percy Harvin play, the QB is in shotgun with the RB on strong side (with H-back in front of him) and WR on weak side. The RB leads strong side, the QB hands off to the WR who follows the lead block, then cuts back (counters) in the other direction, with the H-back and strong-side G pulling in the counter direction.
Meyer's 2014 version is more simplistic, possibly because the team didn't have enough time to prepare and practice a counter play that required perfect timing to be effective. Here the QB, RB, WR (Curtis Samuel), and H-back line up exactly as in the Percy Harvin play, but instead of counter action the Buckeyes run a straight power sweep to the strong side.
At 2:57 we have the same play as 0:18 (the modified counter trey), except that the pulling tackle must've forgotten the snap count because he is late out of his stance and not really effective with his pull block. But it doesn't really matter because Wisconsin is completely outclassed by a far superior Ohio State team, and the Badgers are already starting to show "quit" despite being down only 17-0.
At 3:40 we have the Michigan play run the other direction with similar results - Zeke goes into the end zone untouched from 12 yards out, but it could've gone for 1,200 or 12,000 yards if the field had been big enough.
At 0:18 we have a play that is similar to the modified counter trey that was used sparingly but to great effect against Wisconsin. In this case the center pulls and leads the play. The play is not particularly well blocked (or well designed, IMO), but through tremendous individual effort Zeke turns it into a 60-yard gain and near TD.
At 0:45 we have another variation of the counter trey with the C and RG pulling right.
At 1:04 we have a variation of the Michigan play, with Marshall showing jet sweep (as opposed to traditional sweep) action and no wham block from the H-back. The same play occurs at 1:17 and 1:28 (opposite direction) and 1:34 of the video. I would call this the Alabama play, but we won't see it in the next game.
At 1:45 we have 85 Yards Through the Heart of the South - the LG (Billy Price) pulls left (strong side of formation, short side of field) and the WR (Evan Spencer) comes from a wide split (maybe 8 yards) to provide a wham block on the MLB. Pretty much perfect timing from both Price and Spencer (and Elliott to set up his blocks), and of course Zeke needs only the smallest crease to break off a huge run.
At 1:28, we basically have the Wisconsin TE wham play with similar results, a 33-yard TD run by Zeke.
At 2:00 and 2:08, we have a counter trey variation, with both guards pulling left and the play side WR attempting (not very effectively) a wham block (similar to the 85 Yards play).
At 3:08, we get the Wisconsin play for another huge gain.
The third quarter starts at 4:09 of the video. Meyer and Herman must've seen something at halftime because they unveil a new play - the Oregon play - on the first play from scrimmage. It is another version of the counter trey with jet sweep action added into the mix. The H-back is lined up right, Jalin Marshall shows jet action right, H-back and RG pull left, Zeke counters left for 22 yards.
At 4:49 we get another Oregon left for 9 yards.
At 5:15 we have an interesting counter play. TE lined up on right side, Zeke takes the handoff and starts right, the RT pulls left, Zeke counters left. A very simple counter concept that should be a basic play in any spread offense.
At 5:33 we get Oregon right for 10 yards.
At 6:35 another Oregon right for 10 yards.
At 7:01 another Oregon right for 12 yards.
At 7:11 we get an Oregon left for 9 yards and a TD. In the third quarter, Ohio State ran the Oregon play 6 times for 72 yards and a TD. That play was crucial in establishing Ohio State's dominance in the second half and in wearing down the Oregon defense.
At 8:08 we get our final Oregon play for 5 yards.
At 8:34 we get a variation of the Oregon play - the same jet sweep action without the counter trey, just straight ahead blocking (which was all that was needed against a beaten down Ducks defense).
So in summary, a spread team without a running QB can establish an effective running attack (and if you have Ezekiel Elliott, a dominant running attack). Urban Meyer and Tom Herman showed us how to do so by employing various counter trey (Dave) plays; sometimes with jet sweep action to confuse the defense, and also by using H-back wham blocks at the point of attack (the Wisconsin play), again sometimes with sweep action to confuse the defense (the Michigan play).
There's really no reason why Ohio State can't use Emeka Egbuka in the Percy Harvin role (whether counter or sweep action) and as a decoy for the Oregon play and Michigan plays (with TreVeyon Henderson or Miyan Williams running the ball). Mitch Rossi is perhaps the best run blocker on the team and he should be perfect for the Michigan and Wisconsin wham plays, as well as for the Oregon counter trey play. But I imagine that we'll keep seeing outside zone until our eyes bleed.
1. This game reminded me most of the 2006 road game at Illinois. The weather was similar - 49 degrees and 15 mph winds, which probably seemed more like 30 mph in the wind tunnel that is Memorial Stadium. Future Heisman winner Troy Smith was 13/23 (.565) for 108 yards (4.7 yd/att), 0 TDs, and an INT. The Buckeye offense as a whole managed to grind out only 224 yards on 70 plays (3.2 yd/play). Led by linebacker J Leman (19 tackles, 3.5 TFL, a sack, and a forced fumble), Illinois had 3 sacks, 12 TFLs, 6 QBHs, 3 PBUs, and forced 2 turnovers. Despite the sloppy play against a 2-8 team, the Buckeyes held on to win 17-10 to improve to 10-0 on the season and keep their national title hopes alive (they would go on to crush Northwestern and edge Michigan in the Game of the Century to finish as undisputed Big Ten champs and regular season national champions). So one bad game in bad weather against a bad team won't necessarily derail this team's title aspirations. But a similar performance against a better team certainly will.
2. I posted the following chart and analysis at halftime. I have updated the numbers to reflect the entire NW game:
The "power running" teams that Ohio State has played so far....
NOTE: The above numbers are skewed against Ohio State due to a Wisconsin 75-yard TD run against the Buckeye backups in garbage time of a 52-21 game. Take out that one play and the Buckeye defense has the following numbers against Wisconsin: 34 attempts, 117 yards, 3.4 average, 1 TD....
And against all "power running" teams: 187 attempts, 607 yards, 3.2 average, 4 TDs.
| Opponent | Attempts | Yardage | Average | TDs |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Notre Dame | 30 | 76 | 2.5 | 1 |
| Wisconsin | 35 | 192 | 5.5 | 2 |
| Iowa | 35 | 77 | 2.2 | 0 |
| Penn State | 33 | 111 | 3.4 | 1 |
| Northwestern | 55 | 226 | 4.1 | 1 |
| TOTALS | 188 | 682 | 3.6 | 5 |
And against all "power running" teams: 187 attempts, 607 yards, 3.2 average, 4 TDs.
I also stated earlier in the game thread that you need a running QB (or at least the threat of a QB run) to make a spread offense work efficiently. That is not exactly true. While a running QB is the best and easiest way to make a spread running attack work - because the QB "keep" option on zone read plays is effectively a counter or constraint to the RB run - you can also run effectively from the spread if you employ "power" running game principles.
In 2014, Ohio State was basically a zone-read running team with J.T. Barrett at the helm. When Barrett got injured in the 4th quarter of the Michigan game, he was replaced by Cardale Jones, who was not well-suited to run a zone-read scheme (in fact he was pretty awful at running zone-read - witness his botched hand off in the National Championship game for the most egregious example). With zone-read essentially off the table, Urban Meyer and Tom Herman created a power running attack that led the Buckeyes to a National Championship behind their third-string quarterback.
After Barrett was lost for the remainder of the season with an injury, Ezekiel Elliott played 13 quarters of football with Cardale Jones as his quarterback. During those 13 quarters (one against Michigan to end the regular season, four each against Wisconsin, Alabama, and Oregon in the postseason), Zeke had 79 carries for 746 yards (9.4 average per carry; 224 average per game) and 9 touchdowns, a truly historic run that will likely never be matched. Although Zeke was probably better than TreVeyon Henderson and Miyan Williams combined, the current Buckeye staff can learn a few tricks from their national champion predecessors on how to craft a power running attack from a spread look with a QB who doesn't like to run (although as we saw today he is perfectly capable of doing so).
First, I will note that Miyan Williams seems too slow to run the outside zone play that Ryan Day favors; The quicker Henderson, who was absent from today's game, seems much better suited for OZ with his ability to find and hit a crease before it closes or to bounce outside. Williams, however, with his size and straight-ahead running style would be a natural fit for a power running attack.
To follow will be Youtube videos of Zeke Elliott's performances in the 2014 Michigan, Wisconsin, Alabama, and Oregon games, with commentary from me. Please remember that I am not a coach and that I don't claim to be a football expert in any way, shape, or form. I will describe what happens on the various plays in layman's terms.
The only Zeke run worth mentioning occurs at 6:20 of the video. Jones is in the shotgun, with Jalin Marshall on his left and Zeke on his right. The TE motions right to left and sets as an H-back, then "wham" blocks right. Marshall shows traditional sweep action right, Zeke takes handoff left on the counter action, with Jones continuing right to sell the sweep. Zeke finds a crease, breaks a tackle, and takes it to the house from 44 yards out. I will call this the Michigan play.
With Cardale Jones finding Devin Smith on three long touchdowns (39, 42, and 44 yards) and the defense pitching a shutout, Ohio State didn't need much creativity in their running attack.
At 0:18, Ohio State runs a variation of the counter trey (or Dave), with the C and LT pulling left. It's an interesting concept and it worked fairly well on that play, but Ohio State would find better options for its power running attack.
Wisconsin's defense was undersized and slow (typical for the Big Ten then and now). Because such defenses work best (if they work at all) by out-scheming the opposing offense, the best way to attack such a defense is with quick hitting plays that don't allow for the defense to set its scheme (re-watch this year's Iowa and Penn State games to see what I'm talking about). At 1:11 we get such a quick hitter, with the H-back lined up right, whams left, Zeke finds the crease straight up the middle and goes for 12 yards. The very next play is the exact same play except with the H-back lined up left and whamming right; Zeke again finds the crease (partially caused by a pretty blatant hold by center Jacoby Boren - B1G officials missed one in our favor for once) and takes it 81 yards for the score. Two quick power runs, seven points. I will call this the Wisconsin play.
At 2:21, Urban Meyer goes deep into his bag of tricks and extracts a version of the Percy Harvin play that was so successful at Florida. In the Percy Harvin play, the QB is in shotgun with the RB on strong side (with H-back in front of him) and WR on weak side. The RB leads strong side, the QB hands off to the WR who follows the lead block, then cuts back (counters) in the other direction, with the H-back and strong-side G pulling in the counter direction.
Meyer's 2014 version is more simplistic, possibly because the team didn't have enough time to prepare and practice a counter play that required perfect timing to be effective. Here the QB, RB, WR (Curtis Samuel), and H-back line up exactly as in the Percy Harvin play, but instead of counter action the Buckeyes run a straight power sweep to the strong side.
At 2:57 we have the same play as 0:18 (the modified counter trey), except that the pulling tackle must've forgotten the snap count because he is late out of his stance and not really effective with his pull block. But it doesn't really matter because Wisconsin is completely outclassed by a far superior Ohio State team, and the Badgers are already starting to show "quit" despite being down only 17-0.
At 3:40 we have the Michigan play run the other direction with similar results - Zeke goes into the end zone untouched from 12 yards out, but it could've gone for 1,200 or 12,000 yards if the field had been big enough.
At 0:18 we have a play that is similar to the modified counter trey that was used sparingly but to great effect against Wisconsin. In this case the center pulls and leads the play. The play is not particularly well blocked (or well designed, IMO), but through tremendous individual effort Zeke turns it into a 60-yard gain and near TD.
At 0:45 we have another variation of the counter trey with the C and RG pulling right.
At 1:04 we have a variation of the Michigan play, with Marshall showing jet sweep (as opposed to traditional sweep) action and no wham block from the H-back. The same play occurs at 1:17 and 1:28 (opposite direction) and 1:34 of the video. I would call this the Alabama play, but we won't see it in the next game.
At 1:45 we have 85 Yards Through the Heart of the South - the LG (Billy Price) pulls left (strong side of formation, short side of field) and the WR (Evan Spencer) comes from a wide split (maybe 8 yards) to provide a wham block on the MLB. Pretty much perfect timing from both Price and Spencer (and Elliott to set up his blocks), and of course Zeke needs only the smallest crease to break off a huge run.
At 1:28, we basically have the Wisconsin TE wham play with similar results, a 33-yard TD run by Zeke.
At 2:00 and 2:08, we have a counter trey variation, with both guards pulling left and the play side WR attempting (not very effectively) a wham block (similar to the 85 Yards play).
At 3:08, we get the Wisconsin play for another huge gain.
The third quarter starts at 4:09 of the video. Meyer and Herman must've seen something at halftime because they unveil a new play - the Oregon play - on the first play from scrimmage. It is another version of the counter trey with jet sweep action added into the mix. The H-back is lined up right, Jalin Marshall shows jet action right, H-back and RG pull left, Zeke counters left for 22 yards.
At 4:49 we get another Oregon left for 9 yards.
At 5:15 we have an interesting counter play. TE lined up on right side, Zeke takes the handoff and starts right, the RT pulls left, Zeke counters left. A very simple counter concept that should be a basic play in any spread offense.
At 5:33 we get Oregon right for 10 yards.
At 6:35 another Oregon right for 10 yards.
At 7:01 another Oregon right for 12 yards.
At 7:11 we get an Oregon left for 9 yards and a TD. In the third quarter, Ohio State ran the Oregon play 6 times for 72 yards and a TD. That play was crucial in establishing Ohio State's dominance in the second half and in wearing down the Oregon defense.
At 8:08 we get our final Oregon play for 5 yards.
At 8:34 we get a variation of the Oregon play - the same jet sweep action without the counter trey, just straight ahead blocking (which was all that was needed against a beaten down Ducks defense).
So in summary, a spread team without a running QB can establish an effective running attack (and if you have Ezekiel Elliott, a dominant running attack). Urban Meyer and Tom Herman showed us how to do so by employing various counter trey (Dave) plays; sometimes with jet sweep action to confuse the defense, and also by using H-back wham blocks at the point of attack (the Wisconsin play), again sometimes with sweep action to confuse the defense (the Michigan play).
There's really no reason why Ohio State can't use Emeka Egbuka in the Percy Harvin role (whether counter or sweep action) and as a decoy for the Oregon play and Michigan plays (with TreVeyon Henderson or Miyan Williams running the ball). Mitch Rossi is perhaps the best run blocker on the team and he should be perfect for the Michigan and Wisconsin wham plays, as well as for the Oregon counter trey play. But I imagine that we'll keep seeing outside zone until our eyes bleed.
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