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It's a week later, but something in the article Grad21 posted just hit me now...
Uh, really?
Uh, really?
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hoffjohnman
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who's behind pittman
Is that Eddie George behind Pittman in the picture, Isn't that ironic!!!
Is that Eddie George behind Pittman in the picture, Isn't that ironic!!!
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Also ironic or symbolic is the lack of ND defenders in the picture.
You talk about 1 photo summing up the whole damn day.
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some interesting observations from charles babb on ND fans...
<table class="forumline" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th class="thLeft" height="26" nowrap="nowrap" width="150">Author</th> <th class="thRight" nowrap="nowrap">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="150">Charles Babb
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: What I saw from the Field in the Fiesta</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Covering the game and watching from the sideline here is what I saw:
1. I didn't like the way the referees called this game for either team. The Ohio State defensive line was being mugged at the point of attack for most of this contest. This was the result of ND being (as was mentioned by a poster above) slightly less talented. When you are in that position you do the best you can to protect your quarterback and if the referees refuse to call it then so be it. The cameras were not focusing on it, but the game nearly got out of hand early with a few shots after the whistle that the referees largely ignored. Penalties should have been called. On the pass with Gonzalez - that is a play that perhaps could be called either way though I would say it is an incomplete pass. If that is a complete pass then Ohio State should have been playing in the Rose Bowl; Ryan Hamby 'caught' one just like that against Texas in the end zone. It was ruled incomplete even after review and Texas won by 3. If you have game film then watch it; I have and Hamby had more claim to possession than Gonzalez, especially since 1 millisecond of possession counts as a TD in the end zone - the play is over. Hamby's pass was incomplete as well - though some Ohio State fans will swear it wasn't.
2. Ohio State's wide receivers had greater speed than anything ND had seen all year. Tom Z. in interviews leading up to the game said they would try to play OSU's wideouts physical because teams that tried to play them straight up lost. They wanted to jam Ginn and Holmes and Gonzo off the line of scrimmage to throw off the timing. They did some of that during the game, but they didn't always get it done at the LOS. On Ginn's long TD you can see he was never jammed.
3. Weis was outcoached by Jim Tressel. Prior to the game there was a male crush ongoing with Weis (and still is to a point), while Tressel's 5 national championships as a head coach and 3-1 bowl record and 6 times advancing to the NCAA I-AA championship game in 17 years were ignored. This was a mistake. Weis, as an assistant, did well helping coach an offense, but he had never prepared a college team for a bowl game. College and professional are different. Tressel in this situation had the advantage. He used it, and his team looked like they were better prepared on the field of play.
4. Notre Dame hung tough. They were smaller, not as fast, and not as strong - but they continued to play hard. That speaks well to the future of the program. Give Weis a few years to put the program in a good strength and conditioning program and recruit a few more burners, and they will be able to play straight up.
5. The schedule of Notre Dame hurt them. What looked to be a strong schedule on paper turned out less than expected. Their opponents overall were not as physical or as proficient as those of Ohio State. The Buckeyes were more prepared for a punching contest between heavyweight fighters. The other item here (and I know it might not be popular) is that conference play helps teams come bowl time. The Big Ten and SEC especially help because you have to get by teams who play you every year - and some of those teams like a Minnesota, Wisconsin, Penn State, LSU, Alabama, Auburn, etc. are physical. Very physical. Notre Dame did not play a truly physical team other than Ohio State while the Buckeyes played Minnesota, Texas, and Penn State. Michigan is soft and has been for several years - especially on defense. They have the talent to contend for national titles but the coaches are not using it well.
6. Notre Dame somewhat underestimated Ohio State's defense. When asked who he thought Ohio State's defense looked like - Weis told the media that they reminded him of Tennessee. He insisted on the comparison when questioned. One of the Notre Dame players (can't remember which) also told me the same in interviews leading up to the game. The problem of course is that nobody sniffed the kind of yardage on OSU that multiple teams put up against Tennessee. There was no comparison between these two units except in perhaps a few personnel groupings. This underestimation left Notre Dame's offense in a poor position to the point that Weis had to switch gears and try a different tactic - saying after the game he switched up the play calling to try and break the team out of it's situation. Even then, what worked quite well against Tennessee did not work against Ohio State. The Buckeye defense was probably the top defense in the nation this year; 35+ of the points it allowed came in junk time as Tressel ran out the clock.
7. Tom Z. is going to be a great leader in the offseason as will Walker and Quinn. I was very impressed with those three in particular. Solid players who might take this team to the next level. I liked what I saw and heard in interviews.
8. I remain concerned Weis is too much of a professional coach and not enough of a college coach. What works at one level may or may not work at lower or upper levels. I think he will get it right as time moves forward and learn college kids need a bit more babying since most of them are actually leaving home for the first time. They are't 30 years old with their own bachelor pad; they are 18 and some are in their dorm crying (literally) for home.
What do I see for next year for both teams?
Notre Dame catches a break in that both Michigan and Penn State should be down (though Michigan will be dangerous and looking for redemption against both ND and OSU). Michigan State seems to have internal issues. The Pac Ten is overall a soft conference so UCLA, Stanford, and USC are going to be ranked highly - but over-rated if you follow me. Having said that - unless this team takes a leap forward in talent, speed, and size I would forecast a 10-2 type season with 9-3 or 11-1 possible.
Ohio State catches a break in their schedule with no Wisconsin and UM/PSU both in Ohio Stadium. However, the game at Austin will be tough with or without Young. Toss in the loss of Whitner and Youboty as well as 7 other starters from the 2005 defense - probably all of which will be on an NFL roster or starting next fall - and you have a team with a great offense and suspect D. You don't replace a guy like A.J. Hawk or Bobby Carpenter (didn't play in the Fiesta but he was a beast). 6'3", 225 safeties who run a 4.4 like Nate Salley don't grow on trees. 10-2 could be the result. 12-0 is possible if and only if the defense matures quickly enough. 9-3 is possible if not.
In the end, these two teams could meet next season in the BCS again. If they do, I would look for a closer game.
This one - without Ohio State's poor blocking on their field goal unit, time running down at the end of the first half, and a bad pitch by Smith - this is a 45-20 type game. Ohio State's mistakes nearly let Notre Dame back into it and again - to their credit ND played hard and nearly clawed their way into it in the fourth quarter despite 600+ yards of offense by the Buckeyes.</td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="middle" width="150">Back to top</td> <td class="row1" height="28" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="18" width="18"> <tbody><tr> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">
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</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="top" width="150">Charles Babb
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</td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="100%">Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: </td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">That's a fair question. ("how can tressel outcoach weis when it was the talent that won the game")
I think the difference is that Weis made a serious tactical error in what he believed the team he was facing was capable of. He believed (and translated to the team) that the Ohio State defense was similar to that of Tennessee. In fact, if Musberger is to be believed Weis maintained that the defense of Tennessee was as good as that of Ohio State.
I believe that to be a coaching mistake.
The other area where Weis was outcoached was in preparation for the bowl. Notre Dame would have eaten Ohio State's lunch 4 days before the game. In Wednesday and Thursday interviews the Irish players looked ready to play and were well prepared. Ohio State's players looked like they were having fun.
This is great for a pro team, but a college kid tends to wear out emotionally. By Monday Notre Dame's players were emotionally spent. Ohio State's guys were just peaking.
If you have a tape of the game, I would encourage you to take it out and watch the sidelines between the 1st and 3rd quarters. Until OSU fouled up in their blocking for their second missed field goal - the Irish sideline was like a funeral. I actually went over to stand next to the bench and watch because it was so odd to see.
Will this continue?
I doubt it. I think Weis will learn from this experience and move forward. Tressel lost his first bowl at Ohio State when the Buckeyes came out flat. They came back with a shot to win it in the fourth quarter but fell just short.
Sound familiar?
Notre Dame has a bright future with Weis. I think he stays until he wins a championship. My guess is that will come in 3-4 years once scholarship numbers and depth have been restored. Brady will do well his senior season but the talent gap is still going to be there for a couple of years. It will trip up the Irish at some point.
As for the schedule, I did a breakdown of both team's schedules prior to the game. Watching the teams on the field, the Buckeyes appeared much more physical. They were used to facing a higher category of talent than Notre Dame. Facing the Irish therefore - there were no surprises. Other than the initial touchdown drive, Ohio State's defense held Notre Dame and without a costly penalty and a costly fumble - this was a 35-7 game at the half.
Again though - Notre Dame played well. They played well enough to stay in the game and at points had a shot to get a win. The future is bright. My take is it will be another three years until the Irish reach any championship game, but they might be able to pull it off sooner depending on what happens with a few teams on their schedule during the offseason. Same with Ohio State. I think their losses on defense will end up costing them a game, and playing in Austin during September is not what you call the best way to reach a title game. Buckeye fans and even some of the media want to make OSU preseason #1, but I think top 5 is more likely.</td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: What I saw from the Field in the Fiesta</td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Covering the game and watching from the sideline here is what I saw: 1. I didn't like the way the referees called this game for either team. The Ohio State defensive line was being mugged at the point of attack for most of this contest. This was the result of ND being (as was mentioned by a poster above) slightly less talented. When you are in that position you do the best you can to protect your quarterback and if the referees refuse to call it then so be it. The cameras were not focusing on it, but the game nearly got out of hand early with a few shots after the whistle that the referees largely ignored. Penalties should have been called. On the pass with Gonzalez - that is a play that perhaps could be called either way though I would say it is an incomplete pass. If that is a complete pass then Ohio State should have been playing in the Rose Bowl; Ryan Hamby 'caught' one just like that against Texas in the end zone. It was ruled incomplete even after review and Texas won by 3. If you have game film then watch it; I have and Hamby had more claim to possession than Gonzalez, especially since 1 millisecond of possession counts as a TD in the end zone - the play is over. Hamby's pass was incomplete as well - though some Ohio State fans will swear it wasn't.
2. Ohio State's wide receivers had greater speed than anything ND had seen all year. Tom Z. in interviews leading up to the game said they would try to play OSU's wideouts physical because teams that tried to play them straight up lost. They wanted to jam Ginn and Holmes and Gonzo off the line of scrimmage to throw off the timing. They did some of that during the game, but they didn't always get it done at the LOS. On Ginn's long TD you can see he was never jammed.
3. Weis was outcoached by Jim Tressel. Prior to the game there was a male crush ongoing with Weis (and still is to a point), while Tressel's 5 national championships as a head coach and 3-1 bowl record and 6 times advancing to the NCAA I-AA championship game in 17 years were ignored. This was a mistake. Weis, as an assistant, did well helping coach an offense, but he had never prepared a college team for a bowl game. College and professional are different. Tressel in this situation had the advantage. He used it, and his team looked like they were better prepared on the field of play.
4. Notre Dame hung tough. They were smaller, not as fast, and not as strong - but they continued to play hard. That speaks well to the future of the program. Give Weis a few years to put the program in a good strength and conditioning program and recruit a few more burners, and they will be able to play straight up.
5. The schedule of Notre Dame hurt them. What looked to be a strong schedule on paper turned out less than expected. Their opponents overall were not as physical or as proficient as those of Ohio State. The Buckeyes were more prepared for a punching contest between heavyweight fighters. The other item here (and I know it might not be popular) is that conference play helps teams come bowl time. The Big Ten and SEC especially help because you have to get by teams who play you every year - and some of those teams like a Minnesota, Wisconsin, Penn State, LSU, Alabama, Auburn, etc. are physical. Very physical. Notre Dame did not play a truly physical team other than Ohio State while the Buckeyes played Minnesota, Texas, and Penn State. Michigan is soft and has been for several years - especially on defense. They have the talent to contend for national titles but the coaches are not using it well.
6. Notre Dame somewhat underestimated Ohio State's defense. When asked who he thought Ohio State's defense looked like - Weis told the media that they reminded him of Tennessee. He insisted on the comparison when questioned. One of the Notre Dame players (can't remember which) also told me the same in interviews leading up to the game. The problem of course is that nobody sniffed the kind of yardage on OSU that multiple teams put up against Tennessee. There was no comparison between these two units except in perhaps a few personnel groupings. This underestimation left Notre Dame's offense in a poor position to the point that Weis had to switch gears and try a different tactic - saying after the game he switched up the play calling to try and break the team out of it's situation. Even then, what worked quite well against Tennessee did not work against Ohio State. The Buckeye defense was probably the top defense in the nation this year; 35+ of the points it allowed came in junk time as Tressel ran out the clock.
7. Tom Z. is going to be a great leader in the offseason as will Walker and Quinn. I was very impressed with those three in particular. Solid players who might take this team to the next level. I liked what I saw and heard in interviews.
8. I remain concerned Weis is too much of a professional coach and not enough of a college coach. What works at one level may or may not work at lower or upper levels. I think he will get it right as time moves forward and learn college kids need a bit more babying since most of them are actually leaving home for the first time. They are't 30 years old with their own bachelor pad; they are 18 and some are in their dorm crying (literally) for home.
What do I see for next year for both teams?
Notre Dame catches a break in that both Michigan and Penn State should be down (though Michigan will be dangerous and looking for redemption against both ND and OSU). Michigan State seems to have internal issues. The Pac Ten is overall a soft conference so UCLA, Stanford, and USC are going to be ranked highly - but over-rated if you follow me. Having said that - unless this team takes a leap forward in talent, speed, and size I would forecast a 10-2 type season with 9-3 or 11-1 possible.
Ohio State catches a break in their schedule with no Wisconsin and UM/PSU both in Ohio Stadium. However, the game at Austin will be tough with or without Young. Toss in the loss of Whitner and Youboty as well as 7 other starters from the 2005 defense - probably all of which will be on an NFL roster or starting next fall - and you have a team with a great offense and suspect D. You don't replace a guy like A.J. Hawk or Bobby Carpenter (didn't play in the Fiesta but he was a beast). 6'3", 225 safeties who run a 4.4 like Nate Salley don't grow on trees. 10-2 could be the result. 12-0 is possible if and only if the defense matures quickly enough. 9-3 is possible if not.
In the end, these two teams could meet next season in the BCS again. If they do, I would look for a closer game.
This one - without Ohio State's poor blocking on their field goal unit, time running down at the end of the first half, and a bad pitch by Smith - this is a 45-20 type game. Ohio State's mistakes nearly let Notre Dame back into it and again - to their credit ND played hard and nearly clawed their way into it in the fourth quarter despite 600+ yards of offense by the Buckeyes.</td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="row1" align="left" valign="middle" width="150">Back to top</td> <td class="row1" height="28" nowrap="nowrap" valign="bottom" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="18" width="18"> <tbody><tr> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="middle">
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: </td> <td align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">That's a fair question. ("how can tressel outcoach weis when it was the talent that won the game")I think the difference is that Weis made a serious tactical error in what he believed the team he was facing was capable of. He believed (and translated to the team) that the Ohio State defense was similar to that of Tennessee. In fact, if Musberger is to be believed Weis maintained that the defense of Tennessee was as good as that of Ohio State.
I believe that to be a coaching mistake.
The other area where Weis was outcoached was in preparation for the bowl. Notre Dame would have eaten Ohio State's lunch 4 days before the game. In Wednesday and Thursday interviews the Irish players looked ready to play and were well prepared. Ohio State's players looked like they were having fun.
This is great for a pro team, but a college kid tends to wear out emotionally. By Monday Notre Dame's players were emotionally spent. Ohio State's guys were just peaking.
If you have a tape of the game, I would encourage you to take it out and watch the sidelines between the 1st and 3rd quarters. Until OSU fouled up in their blocking for their second missed field goal - the Irish sideline was like a funeral. I actually went over to stand next to the bench and watch because it was so odd to see.
Will this continue?
I doubt it. I think Weis will learn from this experience and move forward. Tressel lost his first bowl at Ohio State when the Buckeyes came out flat. They came back with a shot to win it in the fourth quarter but fell just short.
Sound familiar?
Notre Dame has a bright future with Weis. I think he stays until he wins a championship. My guess is that will come in 3-4 years once scholarship numbers and depth have been restored. Brady will do well his senior season but the talent gap is still going to be there for a couple of years. It will trip up the Irish at some point.
As for the schedule, I did a breakdown of both team's schedules prior to the game. Watching the teams on the field, the Buckeyes appeared much more physical. They were used to facing a higher category of talent than Notre Dame. Facing the Irish therefore - there were no surprises. Other than the initial touchdown drive, Ohio State's defense held Notre Dame and without a costly penalty and a costly fumble - this was a 35-7 game at the half.
Again though - Notre Dame played well. They played well enough to stay in the game and at points had a shot to get a win. The future is bright. My take is it will be another three years until the Irish reach any championship game, but they might be able to pull it off sooner depending on what happens with a few teams on their schedule during the offseason. Same with Ohio State. I think their losses on defense will end up costing them a game, and playing in Austin during September is not what you call the best way to reach a title game. Buckeye fans and even some of the media want to make OSU preseason #1, but I think top 5 is more likely.</td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table>
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NOTREDAMECHIEF
Legend
LOL!! hmmm ND wont play OSU and MICH but they will play MICHIGAN AND USC.........
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So ND is going to join the Pac-10 now? I thought they were the only ones taking credit for getting beat by USC.NOTREDAMECHIEF said:
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MightbeaBuck
with hat in hand
And what is funny about this? ND will play scUM? So? Maybe if they (scUM) finished in the top 30 it would matter.NOTREDAMECHIEF said:
But the point Nightmares Dad makes is that ND is afraid to play even more of a B10 schedule than they already are. Both from, IMO, a PR viewpoint and from a win-loss viewpoint.
Oh yeah:
LOL!
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NightmaresDad
Woody Rules!
They ALWAYS play USC - that's not part of the equation.
Them stepping up and playing Penn St next year is better than their normal B10 selection.
We played a tough B10 schedule PLUS TX this year.
you played a weak B10 schedule PLUS USC this year.
Edit: removed overly personal comment--21
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From the official site - Fiesta Bowl Trophy at VCA on Sunday
Jan. 12, 2006
COLUMBUS, Ohio - Jim Tressel, Ohio State head football coach, and representatives of the Ohio State football team, will present Athletics Director Gene Smith with the 2005 Fiesta Bowl Trophy during halftime of the Ohio State vs. Michigan State men's basketball game Sunday. Tip time for that game is 4:35 p.m.
The Fiesta Bowl Trophy will be on display during both the men's and women's basketball games Sunday outside the Arena Shop, located on the entry level of Value City Arena on the east side of the facility. Fans will have the opportunity to take photographs with the trophy during both games.
Jan. 12, 2006
COLUMBUS, Ohio - Jim Tressel, Ohio State head football coach, and representatives of the Ohio State football team, will present Athletics Director Gene Smith with the 2005 Fiesta Bowl Trophy during halftime of the Ohio State vs. Michigan State men's basketball game Sunday. Tip time for that game is 4:35 p.m.
The Fiesta Bowl Trophy will be on display during both the men's and women's basketball games Sunday outside the Arena Shop, located on the entry level of Value City Arena on the east side of the facility. Fans will have the opportunity to take photographs with the trophy during both games.
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ulukinatme
Old Skool
I'm pretty sure ND isn't afraid to play even more of a Big 10 schedule, many times they're schedule is tougher than the Big 10. Certainly not this year, but if Tennessee wouldn't have played like crap, as well as scUM and Purdue, things would have been normal. We already play scUM and MSU because of long standing rivalries, Purdue isn't as long I think but its more of an in-state thing. After those three theres USC always, then one or two military academies,
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