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The Creation Museum

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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1890817; said:
I must not be expressing myself well then. Why should there have ever been nothing - Well, because we see that the universe is expanding, right? Wind the tape back..... What do you find? A point in time where there wasn't a universe.

The Law of conservation of mass counsels that in a closed system (Say, the universe) the mass of that system cannot change as a result of processes acting within that system.

So, if that's true, don't we have to believe that our universe - as big as it is - has always had a mass of X? That X was contained in a singularity before it spontaneously exploded? Why is this a satisfying result? If it's always been mass X, and it existed prior to the big bang, where is the cause for it to have big banged in the first instance? That is to say - if it was Mass X for some period of time and it did not explode, then there is no reason to think it would ever explode without something external being added to it - to put it over the edge, so to speak.


Not necessary. I'm not unaware of Hawking's discussions on the matter, for example.


The bold part is sorta the point, Kinch. Both Science and Religion arrive at the same conclusion - all that is comes from a position of having never been in the first place. Both are equally as impossible - and yet, here we are, nonetheless.

There never was nothingness? What was there? I've limited this post to discussion about our own universe as being "everything" but I actually believe in multiple universe theory, M-theory, etc.. but, even that can be reduced down to a point of origin.

Don't misunderstand, the G-d I'm talking about doesn't live on the pages of the Bible. I don't find religion's explanation satisfying and the god described therein seems to me, personally, to be rather silly. The G-d I am discussing has nothing to do with the Bible.

I look at it like this - everything is an iteration of itself. I can learn something about how life on this planet works by watching how life works in a petrie dish. In all my experience I have never once found a thing come into being out of nothing. Never. It never happens in our universe. It seems stupid, then, to arrive at the conclusion it happened in the Big Bang.

Again - we can talk about multiple universes and M-theory and all that, but reducing that down, we are left in the same place as contemplating only this universe.
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We are not left in the same place.

Some time ago the Earth was the center of the universe. Then it wasn't. Then it circled the sun.

Then, after more time, we discovered the expansion of the universe. We thought that it was the only one. Yay Hubble. :)

Then, we discovered that Einstein's theory of general relativity didn't play well with quantum mechanics. We learned more. We discovered a way to unite them: we don't know if this is correct yet.

Then we learned that every theory we have leads to multiple universes, or collisions of m-branes as you said.

We are not so special. Every person who wins the lottery can claim it was so unlikely as to require god to have made it happen. What is true is that there will always be someone to claim that: because somebody has to win. We are the winners. Yay!

There is no more reason to believe that there was nothingness than to believe that there was something.
 
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kinch;1890885; said:
There is no more reason to believe that there was nothingness than to believe that there was something.
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Of course there is more reason to believe that there was something - it's a simple experiment... When have you ever seen evidence of a thing being created out of nothing? Ever? I agree that's not "proof" but... as they say - Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1890887; said:
Of course there is more reason to believe that there was something - it's a simple experiment... When have you ever seen evidence of a thing being created out of nothing? Ever? I agree that's not "proof" but... as they say - Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Repeatedly, trillions upon billions of times every day.

Quantum physics. Particles spark in and out of existence all the time. We have proven this to be true.

Nothingness is a concept you understand from our world: it is not a universal one. There is no such thing as nothingness. There is no such thing as a beginning or an end.

It's difficult to see from a common perspective, but that's it.
 
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kinch;1890889; said:
Repeatedly, trillions upon billions of times every day.

Quantum physics. Particles spark in and out of existence all the time. We have proven this to be true.

Nothingness is a concept you understand from our world: it is not a universal one. There is no such thing as nothingness. There is no such thing as a beginning or an end.

It's difficult to see from a common perspective, but that's it.
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Isn't that sort of the problem? It's all a matter of "from our world". Thus, it's difficult to determine if our view of Quantum Physics is valid or not? Meaning: the sparks may or may not be coming in and out of existence even though our perspective shows that they are?
 
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This has nothing to do with anything.

I started studying physics when I was 9. I was confused about the fourth dimension: I asked my mom (a genius, as was my father) how to see it. She told me to start spinning things. First we had a line (one dimension), that spun into a circle (two dimensions) that spun into a sphere (three dimensions), and then she spun the sphere for me. I try all the time to see that wonderful fourth dimension that only she could seemingly see.

Again, nothing to do with anything, I just miss my mom, and I had to write this so I did. :-/ SHOCKER!!! my parents were scientists. :) I have no idea why I am still writing, Nevermind.
 
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kinch;1890889; said:
Repeatedly, trillions upon billions of times every day.

Quantum physics. Particles spark in and out of existence all the time. We have proven this to be true.

Nothingness is a concept you understand from our world: it is not a universal one. There is no such thing as nothingness. There is no such thing as a beginning or an end.

It's difficult to see from a common perspective, but that's it.
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Not so:

"Virtual particles exhibit some of the phenomena that real particles do, such as obedience to the conservation laws. "

I've already posted Conservation of mass, so you can see where I'm going here.

Even if we assume they spark in and out of our universe, from where do they originate? Some other universe, on some other string or membrane? We are left in the same position as before, though it's complicated by 11 dimensions and an infinite number of universes.

To the extent you remark: There is no such thing as a beginning or an end.

How is that different than the claim that G-d is the "Alpha and Omega?"
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1890897; said:
Not so:

"Virtual particles exhibit some of the phenomena that real particles do, such as obedience to the conservation laws. "

I've already posted Conservation of mass, so you can see where I'm going here.

Even if we assume they spark in and out of our universe, from where do they originate? Some other universe, on some other string or membrane? We are left in the same position as before, though it's complicated by 11 dimensions and an infinite number of universes.
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LOL at 11 dimensions. Wow you keep up on your string theory, as it used to be 10. :)

But "not so" is entirely a false comment. We KNOW that particles spark in and out of existence. The idea of conservation laws is primitive and decried by most physicists.
 
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This has even nothing more to do with anything than my last nothing to do with anything post.

But, I'm in a mood, and I somewhat want this mood to be lost here, as it is irrelevant and will fade away.

There were these rich neighbors near me. They were pricks in every way imaginable. One day they flew kites by our home near Sawmill (now Dublin?).

My mom invited all us poor local kids over. She made kites out of dowel rods and trash bags. We decorated them feverishly. Many of my friends were Japanese (they had just come to Ohio for a plant) and they were awesome with cartoons.

We flew our trash-bag kites higher than the rich kids could easily. We doubled them: and ours had cartoons on them!

At the end of that day my mom insisted on bringing the other kids to my house. She made us all brownies and we became friends.

Again, this has nothing to do with anything. I just needed to type. I needed to talk about my mom for a moment.

Okay. Done.

:)
 
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kinch;1890900; said:
LOL at 11 dimensions. Wow you keep up on your string theory, as it used to be 10. :)

But "not so" is entirely a false comment. We KNOW that particles spark in and out of existence. The idea of conservation laws is primitive and decried by most physicists.
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From where do they spark in and out of our universe? Again - if we accept that they spark in and out of this universe, you're making quite the assumption that they didn't exist in some other phase space.

Can't have it both ways.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1890744; said:
For me, the irony is that proving the Bible to be a collection of ridiculous tales does as much to disprove G-d as creationists absurd hole poking into evolution does to disprove natural selection.
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I know I'm pulling this out of a longer string of things, but it made me wonder:

What does everyone think the creationist thinks about Natural Selection?
 
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