Texas A&M suing Seattle over 12th Man

[High Lonesome]

i don't know if it directly impacts atm's income, i do know that they have a copyright on the term the 12th man and if someone decideds to market it to make a profit they have a right to defend their copyright. it is not that they call their crowd the 12th man, it is that they sell merchandise with the term on it and are making money off of it. Ask Pat Riley about the money he gets from 3peet.

in my limited understanding, the seatle seahawks are breaking the law

 

[AJHawkfan]

My understanding is that Seattle retired the number 12 a long time ago and the suit is just now being filed.

Yeah, in 1984. If A&M would've sued then, I might have some sympathy. Now that it happens to be a week before the Super Bowl, A&M is trying to get some publicity.

It's just stupid anyway. Seattle's been using that for 22 years and has sucked the entire time. A&M has been using the 12th man thing for 80+ years and they have more or less always sucked.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Well the merit of their claim is really not the issue in regards to my post. They did pursue the matter.

And their pursuit ended up with no action being taken by the "defendant", as will the 12th Man lawsuit.

 

[High Lonesome]

The difference I see is that UT, or tOSU and others trademark or copyright and protect product and identity items - logos, nicknames that identify the team (Buckeyes, Longhorns, the team colors), cartoons of mascots (Bevo, Brutus) etc.

I don't think there is much of a differnce here at all, The 12th man is a very tangable thing at aTm. every game a student walks on and is given the honor of participating in on the kickoff team. He represents the students and is actually called the 12th man.

Their stadium actually says, Welcome to Aggieland, Home of the 12th man. It is not a stretch at all to say that the 12th man is a mascot and is actually accurate to call it a nickname that identifies the team, just as the have copyrighted the wrecking crew

 

[OH10]

in my limited understanding, the seatle seahawks are breaking the law

And if they are, they've been doing it since the Aggies got their trademark. You can't sit on a lawsuit for 15 years until the team makes the Super Bowl. The Seahawks have so many equitable defenses here, it's ridiculous.

 

[sandgk]

i don't know if it directly impacts atm's income, i do know that they have a copyright on the term the 12th man and if someone decideds to market it to make a profit they have a right to defend their copyright. it is not that they call their crowd the 12th man, it is that they sell merchandise with the term on it and are making money off of it. Ask Pat Riley about the money he gets from 3peet.

in my limited understanding, the seatle seahawks are breaking the law

In my limited understanding they are not ... the date of first ownership of a copyright is governed by the date of first application to or issuance from USPTO (Patents & Trademark Office) - whichever is earlier than the competing claim. Unless A&M applied for the 12th Man copyright fully 6 years before USPTO issued them the exclusivity derived from said 1990 copyright then Seattle's use of the term, in whatever limited capacity it might be, pre-dates A&M's issued copyright. Thus A&M's claims are not likely to hold sway on copyright law alone. They will have to settle, not merely for convenience, but more so because they really don't have a legal leg on which to stand. (Arguing that they were calling their fan-base the 12th man since 1922 for instance, though romantic and all, does not hold water. It would be as enforceable as me depriving someone of the opportunity to name their son Dick for I was the first to do so 20 years prior).

 

[High Lonesome]

And if they are, they've been doing it since the Aggies got their trademark. You can't sit on a lawsuit for 15 years until the team makes the Super Bowl. The Seahawks have so many equitable defenses here, it's ridiculous.

actually i don't know that this is true, i think that actually just resurected the term this season, and began to fly the flag above the stadium this year. Yes i know that they orginally did use the term in '84.


sandgk, you could be correct but from what i hear on the radio, newspaper, and tv down here(and somehow this has become a huge story) you are not.

 

[OH10]

actually i don't know that this is true, i think that actually just resurected the term this season, and began to fly the flag above the stadium this year. Yes i know that they orginally did use the term in '84.

It's been flying for 21 years. They didn't just retire the number and then forget about it until 2005. Maybe the fans didn't embrace it much until this year, but it's not as if a&m didn't know about it.

 

[gost8]

Knd of on the fence on this one. Part of me thinks that this is ridiculous and wonder how I would feel or more importantly how tOSU would feel of they built a stadium shaped similar to Ohio Stadium in L.A. and called it "The Shoe."

 

[gost8]

It's been flying for 21 years. They didn't just retire the number and then forget about it until 2005. Maybe the fans didn't embrace it much until this year, but it's not as if a&m didn't know about it.

I never heard of the 12th man in Seattle till this year. I have known about it at aTm for as long as I remember. Lets face it.... the Seahawks didn't get a lot of press until recently.

 

[LoudBuckeyeGirl]

The Aggies have had a registered trademark (this is a trademark issue, not copyright), and have had one since 1990. Their use goes back many, many years before they registered the mark. If you have a business selling t-shirts w/ the phrase "12th man" (and the Aggies do), and someone else comes along and starts the same business with the same phrase, don't you have some obligation to protect your trademark? The Aggies have a reasonable argument, I think, although none of us have all the information needed to make an informed decision. They have tried to contact the Seahawks previously, with no response. The Aggies have prevented others in the past from using this mark, so they probably have a pretty good chance of success here. Get your Seahawk 12th man t-shirts while you can :)

Link to some of OSU's trademark/applications:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfiel...h&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query

 

[chibucks]

The Aggies have had a registered trademark (this is a trademark issue, not copyright), and have had one since 1990.

In my limited opinion, I agree it's a TM case, not copyright. The aggies have registered the TM for use in clothing, buttons, stickers, hats, and scholarships, as well as jewelry in 1989 and have substantially continuous exclusive use since then. since it's been 5 years since initial registration, the seahawks can only challenge the TM with abandonment, genericness, functionality, or fraud...

they may have an argument for genericness of the TM, but who knows...

and yes, it's all for the $$.

 

[texasfight06]

this type of thing was why I found it laughable how much respect aTm fans had from BPers a few weeks ago. Having spent time on texas boards last summer... I've never seen a program that had a worse case of little brother syndrome (which led to way more hilarious posts from the Aggie board than what I've seen from ND, UM, PSU, Iowa, and Miami fans combined).

It is so, so very entertaining. When I was younger, A&M had a better football program, and I admit, I was a young little bandwagon jumper and used to like the football team. But when I became high school age, and took my own version of recrutining visits to College Station and Austin, I learned quickly how commited the A&M faithful actually were, and how overcrazed they were about some of their stuff, and that turned me off the maroon forever, it felt a little too much like extended high school, and a reintroduction to the boy scouts. But this lawsuit doesn't suprise me in the least bit. They are VERY proud of their traditions, but most of the coverage of this issue has been portraying A&M in a bad light. If they win, the media will still portray them this way, and if they lose, then everyone makes fun of them for even trying and laugh at them for not being able to protect the 12th man. So for A&M its now a lose-lose, and if there is no proof of the Seahawks profiting off the 12th Man, then they really shouldn't have worried about bringing any injuctions. but for now, I will just sit back and enjoy aggy being aggy.

 

[sandgk]

The Aggies have had a registered trademark (this is a trademark issue, not copyright), and have had one since 1990. Their use goes back many, many years before they registered the mark. If you have a business selling t-shirts w/ the phrase "12th man" (and the Aggies do), and someone else comes along and starts the same business with the same phrase, don't you have some obligation to protect your trademark? The Aggies have a reasonable argument, I think, although none of us have all the information needed to make an informed decision. They have tried to contact the Seahawks previously, with no response. The Aggies have prevented others in the past from using this mark, so they probably have a pretty good chance of success here. Get your Seahawk 12th man t-shirts while you can :)

Link to some of OSU's trademark/applications:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=psmkhc.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=The+Ohio+State+University+Institution&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24OW&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query

Ah - but therein lies the rub ... and a clarification of my earlier statements concerning prior use by Seattle, let alone current use.

The Seattle Use in merchandise is not of "The 12th Man" nor of "12th Man" but rather of the Number 12 on a shirt or the like. Thus Aggie lawyers may be hard pressed to prove that Seattle is selling items depicting "The 12th Man" in a manner that conflicts with the original 1990 and 1996 trademarks.

LINK

Hearing to be held Thursday on team's use of "12th Man"

By Benjamin J. Romano
Seattle Times business reporter
<!-- quote: Steve Moore --><!-- quote: "Our requests have not been honored. Therefore, we have no other recourse but to take formal legal action." --><!-- qtitle: Texas A&M's chief marketing officer -->A hearing is scheduled for Thursday on Texas A&M University's attempt to stop the Seahawks from using the phrase "12th Man."
The university filed for a temporary restraining order on Monday.
"We have the responsibility and legal obligation to protect the university's trademarks, which in this instance is the 12th Man," Steve Moore, the university's chief marketing officer, said in a statement.
The 12th Man refers to fan support of the 11 players on the field.
At Texas A&M, the tradition of calling fans the 12th Man dates to 1922. The Seahawks retired the No. 12 jersey in 1984 to honor the team's fans. The phrase has been used widely during this year's run to the Super Bowl, though rarely by the team itself.
The university, which trademarked "12th Man" in 1990, sent cease-and-desist letters to the Seahawks in 2004 and 2005, Moore said.
"Our requests have not been honored," he said.
The hearing will be before Judge J.D. Langley in the 85th District Court of Brazos County, Texas, where the university is located. Langley was an undergraduate at Texas A&M, according to a Texas judicial directory.
Margaret Chon, who teaches intellectual property law at Seattle University Law School, said a temporary restraining order is a type of emergency motion.
"It's a pretty extreme move — probably because the game is next week," she said.
If the judge issues the restraining order, and the Seahawks don't seek an emergency appeal, the team could be found in contempt of court and face fines, Chon said.
But this case is particularly complicated. For one thing, she said, it's not clear if the Seahawks are using the trademarked phrase for commercial gain. The team sells jerseys and other items with the No. 12, but doesn't appear to sell items that say "12th Man."
The Seahawks are still reviewing Texas A&M's filing and did not have a comment Tuesday morning, said Suzanne Lavender, director of corporate communications.

Now this certainly falls apart if Seattle's merchandise is easily confused with that purveyed by or with license from Texas A&M University - But, unless the Aggie's have gone to a Sky Blue strip, that seems doubtful.

They do call their fans the 12th Man - but in this they are not alone. And, if a term has enjoyed currency beyond its point of origin, become part of common vernacular, then it becomes hard to defend against others appropriating that term in speech. Particularly when such appropriation pre-dates your application for trademark with the USPTO. In short the terms of Texas A&M's 12th Man copyright may be more constrained than some think to be the case.

And, given Seattle's lack of application of the precise term "12th Man" to merchandise A&M may have less room for manouver.

 

[TSKCoug]

What it comes down to is the number 12

LoudBuckeyeGirl :"If you have a business selling t-shirts w/ the phrase "12th man" (and the Aggies do), and someone else comes along and starts the same business with the same phrase, don't you have some obligation to protect your trademark? The Aggies have a reasonable argument, I think, although none of us have all the information needed to make an informed decision. They have tried to contact the Seahawks previously, with no response. The Aggies have prevented others in the past from using this mark, so they probably have a pretty good chance of success here. Get your Seahawk 12th man t-shirts while you can."

The Seahawks were not using the phrase "Home of the 12th man", Qwest Field is the home of the Seahawks. The local media may have used the phrase so perhaps A&M should sue The Seattle Times and Seattle Post-Intelligencer. As to the shirts with "the phrase '12th man'", what the Seahawks have been selling for decades are Seahawk jerseys with the number 12 on it, (#12 being understood as referring to the fans). Does Texas A&M have the arrogance to claim that they can trademark the number 12?
As has been mentioned previously in 1984 the Seahawks retired the number 12. Thats all it says! It is understood that the number alone refers to the fans. Nothing on the banner or in the stadium says "Home of the 12th man" Prior to the beginning of each game some person from Seahawk history or other local notable will raise the "12" flag. The flag is blue with a white number 12, nothing else is on it!!! I understand A&M's desire to protect its trademarks as any organization is right to do, I just disagree that a numeral can be trademarked, and I do not believe that they will be able to show that the Seahawk organization has officially used or condoned the use of the phrase "12th man" or "home of the 12th man".

This is bullshit legal stunt by A&M!


Go Seahawks!