Talking Religion...

[Gatorubet]

Abraham immediately comes to mind as someone with a bigger impact than Jesus..

Nope. That is just silly.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Abraham immediately comes to mind as someone with a bigger impact than Jesus..

What about this guy?

 

[JimsSweaterVest]

Going back to this discussion about who is "greater," I think Newton, Darwin, Pasteur, and Einstein (among others) are all far greater figures than Jesus.

These are men who revealed to us some of the biggest mysteries of the universe, the planets, the atom, and life. We owe them modern science, medicine, technology, computers, the Internet, space exploration, air travel, and so much more.

It is patently unfair to a first-century apocalyptic Jewish prophet from Roman Palestine to compare him to these men. He simply couldn't compete.

This is not to say that the religion that took his name and worshiped him as a god is not by far the most influential force in Western history since Roman times, but when we look at the contributions of individual persons, his are by far exceeded by those of the guys I mentioned here.

 

[Bleed S & G]

Going back to this discussion about who is "greater," I think Newton, Darwin, Pasteur, and Einstein (among others) are all far greater figures than Jesus.

These are men who revealed to us some of the biggest mysteries of the universe, the planets, the atom, and life. We owe them modern science, medicine, technology, computers, the Internet, space exploration, air travel, and so much more.

It is patently unfair to a first-century apocalyptic Jewish prophet from Roman Palestine to compare him to these men. He simply couldn't compete.

This is not to say that the religion that took his name and worshiped him as a god is not by far the most influential force in Western history since Roman times, but when we look at the contributions of individual persons, his are by far exceeded by those of the guys I mentioned here.

Depends on what you consider more important to the human race..

Learning the lessons space has to teach or the lessons of the spirtual realm Jesus taught.. I for one, would take the lessons of love over what you mentioned.

As far as impact on mankind goes, my vote is still Abraham.. his offspring gave us Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity.. no doubt, a HUGE impact on the history of the world.

With that said, Al Gore deserves mention

 

[DontHateOState]

Cool beans. I hope that you realize that by accepting to "debate" the topic, you are admitting that the topic is, indeed, "debatable". Thus, if that's the sole premise we'll be working with; then you've already conceded. However, there are many other things that we can discuss that are tangentially related that would be worth delving into.

I can debate that the world is not round. I can debate grass is actually pink. I would be wrong, but I can debate it. Not debatable was probably a poor word selection, but I believe the point was made. The post should be up a little later as I just arrived at my place of dwelling after a long day.:(

 

[Taosman]

Where are the religious archetypes today?
The Buddha was born in 565 BC. Jesus over 2000 years ago.
Where are those kind of people now? You had a much smaller population 2500-2000 years ago. How come there aren't people like that now? Logic would say with a much larger population the chance of a Buddha or Jesus would increase dramatically.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Depends on what you consider more important to the human race..

Learning the lessons space has to teach or the lessons of the spirtual realm Jesus taught.. I for one, would take the lessons of love over what you mentioned.

As far as impact on mankind goes, my vote is still Abraham.. his offspring gave us Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity.. no doubt, a HUGE impact on the history of the world.

With that said, Al Gore deserves mention

It's all the same lesson anyway, so it doesn't really matter. By that I mean, if we are to believe G-d created the universe, then he created relativity, gravity, and so on. In studying science we do not "kill G-d" but glorify Him. G-d does not ask us to remain stupid or ignorant.... (Well, I suppose a textural argument could be fashioned where we'd see some think we should remain ignorant, but I would reject it)

Where are the religious archetypes today?
The Buddha was born in 565 BC. Jesus over 2000 years ago.
Where are those kind of people now? You had a much smaller population 2500-2000 years ago. How come there aren't people like that now? Logic would say with a much larger population the chance of a Buddha or Jesus would increase dramatically.

They're all in loony bins. :p

 

[Bleed S & G]

It's all the same lesson anyway, so it doesn't really matter. By that I mean, if we are to believe G-d created the universe, then he created relativity, gravity, and so on. In studying science we do not "kill G-d" but glorify Him. G-d does not ask us to remain stupid or ignorant.... (Well, I suppose a textural argument could be fashioned where we'd see some think we should remain ignorant, but I would reject it)

I agree with this 100%.. science seems to prove most of the bible and other ancient texts..

I guess what I meant was - I find the teachings of Jesus, Mohammad, and Moses (Abrahams impact) more important to human kind than I do the internet.

If stuff like the internet and electricty is being tossed around - what about the atm bomb? HUGE impact on the world.

 

[JimsSweaterVest]

I agree with this 100%.. science seems to prove most of the bible and other ancient texts..

It does? Where??

I guess what I meant was - I find the teachings of Jesus, Mohammad, and Moses (Abrahams impact) more important to human kind than I do the internet.

Strange you should say that, on the internet. You mean to say you could do in life without the Internet, modern banking and bill payment, cable, air travel, etc... if you had biblical and koranic scrolls?

If stuff like the internet and electricty is being tossed around - what about the atm bomb? HUGE impact on the world.

True. On the one hand, mass destruction. On the other, lots and lots of clean energy.

 

[jwinslow]

Strange you should say that, on the internet. You mean to say you could do in life without the Internet, modern banking and bill payment, cable, air travel, etc... if you had biblical and koranic scrolls?

life did exist before 1990.

 

[DontHateOState]

Muffler, I apologize for the delay in response. This post has been typed up and researched in segments over the course of a few days so it does not flow as well as I would hope; it more or less reads as a list of effects from the cause i.e., Christianity.

Now Muffler, you wouldn't be suggesting that the fact that nearly every person on earth now believes that the sun is at the middle of our solar system, whereas before Copernicus the idea was considered insane would trump 600 million believers in Christianity would you? 

Copernicus proved a scientific fact. While it was a great discovery, it is laughable to place him on the same level as Jesus. The cascade effect of the two are on entirely separate levels.

This leads to the topic of who was the greatest and most influential man to ever live. I think everyone can agree that the cascade effect is the most important criteria, period. Who, by their existence, affected the world and its people the most. This does not have to be in direct ways as the indirect ways can be just as important. The thesis is that no man, woman, or child has directly and/or indirectly affected mankind as much as Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus of Nazareth:

He transformed the very way we measure time. Now the whole world counts time as Before Christ (BC) and AD (Anno Domoni - in the year of our Lord). There have also been more books written about Jesus Christ than any other person in history.

Christianity?s explosion led to the expansion of health care and the invention of hospitals:

Christians early on began to take care of the poor and sick in their neighborhoods. By the year 251, the church in Rome supported more than 1,500 widows and needy persons, all of whom were "fed by the grace and kindness of the Lord." Two great figures in fourth century Christianity, St. Fabiola of Rome and St. Basil of Caesarea went further and built large complexes with their personal fortunes.

Because Christianity?s influence is so pervasive throughout much of the world, it is easy to forget how radical its beliefs once were. Jesus? resurrection forever changed Christians? view of death. Rodney Stark, sociologist at the University of Washington, points out that when a major plague hit the ancient Roman Empire, Christians had surprisingly high survival rates. Why? Most Roman citizens would banish any plague-stricken person from their household. But because Christians had no fear of death, they nursed their sick instead of throwing them out on the streets. Therefore, many Christians survived the plague.

-?2000 Years of Jesus? by Kenneth L. Woodward, NEWSWEEK, March 29, 1999, p. 55.

Countless stories of actions that were inspired by Christianity. Some positive examples:

?Many other men and women in our century have dedicated their lives to spreading the Christian message, often braving torture and death. For example, one of Romania?s most widely known Christian leader, Richard Wurmbrand, spent 14 years in prison and was repeatedly tortured for running the underground church under Communist rule. Even after international pressure secured his release from Romania, he continued to receive death threats from the Communist regime. But these attempts at intimidation did not silence him. He kept publicly spreading the good news of Christ.

Similarly, in Korea, Joon Gon Kim, a well-known Christian leader, witnessed his wife and father slaughtered before his eyes by Communist sympathizers from his own village. He himself was beaten senseless and left for dead. He survived the beating and asked God to give him love for the souls of his enemies. He eventually led 30 Communists to believe in Christ, including the person responsible for the death of his family members.

Not only does the love of Christ impel Christians to face persecution and death but also to work to make the world a better place. Mother Theresa was an outstanding example of a life poured in the service of Christ. Of her well-known ministry among the poor, she said: ?Our work is only the expression of the love we have for God.?

Power to Change ? How Did the Life of Jesus Impact the World?

Some rather bad things have also come about by using Christianity as a reason for action. The Crusades, The Thirty Years War (1618-1648), Baltic Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc., have all been influenced by Christianity. They may not be true to Jesus? message, but they use Christianity as a crutch of reason.


Charity. While I will not claim that Jesus invented charity, it is clear that he popularized it greatly. The Christian missionary movement in the 19th Century pioneered tens of thousands of schools throughout Africa, Asia and the Pacific Islands - providing education for millions. There have also been numerous charities in the Americas and elsewhere that serve others daily.

There are 96 Christian Charities registered under one banner alone in the USA.

Not to mention the yearly reports that find Christian charities among the very best in financial integrity.

Formally educating both sexes in modern times was a Christian innovation. The Greeks and Romans before influence of Christianity did not formally educate girls. Only boys from the privileged classes obtained an education.

The first book printed by Johannes Guttenburg was the Bible. It was a major force behind the need for an efficient form of mass production of literature.

Higher education was also first created in America with Christianity in mind. [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]100 of the first 110 universities in America were founded for the express purpose of propagating the Christian religion. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Also, there is an interesting theory that the rise of science in the West, not the East, can be attributed to Christianity.

Here is an interesting article on that.

How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and the Success of the West: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

And an entire website devoted to Christianity?s influence on science.

Christianity and the Rise of Science

And my final and non-debatable strongest point; Jim Tressel would not be the man he is today without the influence of Christianity upon him. Game. Set. Match.

There are countless other things that can be cited, but I believe the aforementioned ones hit on a macro and micro level. Globally and socially, so to speak.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Muhammad seems a pretty close second...... 2.1 Billion Xtians worldwide (A count that includes the Amish, Morman and any other group) v. 1.5 Billion Muslims... and coming in 3rd, 1.1 Billion people who'd just as soon "worship" the scientific discovery you removed from consideration than a god - the atheists, etc..

Link

There is little question than Jesus has been influential. No question at all.

 

[muffler dragon]

Muffler, I apologize for the delay in response. This post has been typed up and researched in segments over the course of a few days so it does not flow as well as I would hope; it more or less reads as a list of effects from the cause i.e., Christianity.

Never worry about the timing of a response. We all have more important things to be doing than this.

Copernicus proved a scientific fact. While it was a great discovery, it is laughable to place him on the same level as Jesus. The cascade effect of the two are on entirely separate levels.

Forgive me, Don'tHate, but I feel that it would be best to share with you the underlying premise of BKB's statement, because you're missing it with your response.

For a very, very long time, humanity considered the world the center of the universe. It wasn't until another theory was presented (with substantiation) that people began to question it. After this occurred, humanity realized that they were in error.

The same thing can occur with many commonly held beliefs throughout time. The world's common understanding of what Jesus was and did can be likened to the belief that the world was flat. Theories with substantiation can come forth which place this (and other) long held beliefs in question. This is what makes the topic of Jesus' impact debatable.

This leads to the topic of who was the greatest and most influential man to ever live. I think everyone can agree that the cascade effect is the most important criteria, period. Who, by their existence, affected the world and its people the most. This does not have to be in direct ways as the indirect ways can be just as important. The thesis is that no man, woman, or child has directly and/or indirectly affected mankind as much as Jesus of Nazareth.

I'm afraid that the emboldened statement has just diminished the role of Jesus in the world exponentially.

The forerunners of the very doctrines that are attributed to Jesus would actually be the ones who garner the distinction of being greater through indirect means. This would include Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, and so forth. If the absence of any one of these had occurred; then we wouldn't be discussing Jesus as he never would have existed in the first place.

There are two other considerations that I would like to raise for you:

1) It is believed by many (and I would be of this fold) that Christianity as it became post-crucifixion cannot be attributed to Jesus; but instead, to the work of Paul. This is even verified by Jesus' own words that he came for the "lost sheep of Israel".
2) The miracles, works, and words of Jesus are hardly unique. The miracles can be found elsewhere in numerous literatures. The vast majority of his words can be attributed to Sages that pre-dated him by many years.

Some rather bad things have also come about by using Christianity as a reason for action. The Crusades, The Thirty Years War (1618-1648), Baltic Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc., have all been influenced by Christianity. They may not be true to Jesus? message, but they use Christianity as a crutch of reason.

I applaud you for mentioning this as many would not.

And my final and non-debatable strongest point; Jim Tressel would not be the man he is today without the influence of Christianity upon him. Game. Set. Match.

Upon this, I concede.

 

[Bleed S & G]

It does? Where??

Sarcasm?

The first single cell organisms lived in clay.

"The LORD God breathed life into the clay"

The Big Bang

"Let there be light" - more so, when you look back through the history of the world, and use Einsteins theory of Relativity, Day 1 or 24 hours, lines up perfectly with the record of the Earth and what Genisis describes. Day 2, 3, and so on fit.

Strange you should say that, on the internet. You mean to say you could do in life without the Internet, modern banking and bill payment, cable, air travel, etc... if you had biblical and koranic scrolls?

You know what my bible says about all of this stuff?

Luke 18
18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good?except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'[b]"
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!" 29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."

Basically, I'm fucked because of all of this wealth.

True. On the one hand, mass destruction. On the other, lots and lots of clean energy.

This is another way to look at it. I was going more for the impact on the geo-politcal scale. The A-bombs development certainly set the world on a diffrent path.

 

[JimsSweaterVest]

Sarcasm?

The first single cell organisms lived in clay.

"The LORD God breathed life into the clay"

The Big Bang

"Let there be light" - more so, when you look back through the history of the world, and use Einsteins theory of Relativity, Day 1 or 24 hours, lines up perfectly with the record of the Earth and what Genisis describes. Day 2, 3, and so on fit.

I hate to say something like this to a Buckeye brother, but... No.

Genesis is a written record of an oral tradition that was passed down over centuries. It contains a creation myth and some of the founding myths of the Hebrews. It's good folk literature, but that's about it.

It has no scientific content whatsoever. Genesis was written so long before science came along, that it shouldn't surprise you that it cannot even begin to describe the things we learned (and are still learning) about the age of the universe, the origin and evolution of living organisms, etc...

And how do you know the first single-celled organisms lived in clay?

And according to Genesis, when God breathed life into clay, he created (multicellular) organisms as we know them. So how does that in any way give Genesis predictive power?

And surely you are not suggesting that ancient cattle herders who wrote about a talking snake at the same time foresaw Einstein's theory of relativity? If they had, why didn't they write down a few equations in Genesis somewhere?