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- Thread starter JimsSweaterVest
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Gatorubet
Loathing All Things Georgia
Grad - does you messianic synagogue have women elders/Priest/Rabbis - or do they follow the Orthodox Jewish tradition regarding women's roles in Church?
I confess I have never met anyone who follows your religious traditions. (And I assume "messianic synagogue" has as much room for interpretation as "Christian" or "Jewish" does)
I confess I have never met anyone who follows your religious traditions. (And I assume "messianic synagogue" has as much room for interpretation as "Christian" or "Jewish" does)
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Gatorubet;1785661; said:
Gator, my congregation, which is independent of the major messianic organizations, does not allow women to serve in the "rabbinic" role. That being said, the wives of the leadership (we have 1 senior "rabbi" and 2 associate "rabbis" ) are seen as serving as leaders of the congregation along with their husbands--how this plays out is somewhat organic and too difficult to describe here on the boards.
There certainly is room for interpretation and disagreement. For example, the primary reason my congregation remains independent is our rejection of the idea that Jews and Gentiles remain seperate peoples under Jesus. Our own belief is that both the Jew and the former Gentile who are disciples of Jesus, the Messiah, are now united as one, equal people of Israel. This one disagreement, leads to many other subsequent disagreements.
And of course, the label messianic if very controversial for both traditional Jews and Christians. Often times this movement is referred to as Messianic Judaism, but that is a title that I am moving away from personally just because of the contention it raises on many levels with many people. I'm much happier just calling myself Messianic...which of course is to call myself Christian, but using the more Jewish term in doing so.
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muffler dragon
Bien. Bien chiludo.
bgrad:
Are you an advocate of Aramaic primacy on the Gospels? I found that as I was transitioning from nominal Christianity to Messianic that this was a significant part of it.
Are you an advocate of Aramaic primacy on the Gospels? I found that as I was transitioning from nominal Christianity to Messianic that this was a significant part of it.
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muffler dragon;1786307; said:
Sorry for taking so long to respond. My wife, who is seven months pregnant, had a scare two days ago as we thought she was going into premature labor. Thankfully, was a false alarm and she and baby are doing fine.
Anyway, I am not a supporter of Aramaic primacy. I don't buy into literary critiques of the Scriptures that cannot be supported by historical evidence (why I also reject the existence of Q and I reject the four document thesis for the Tanakh). Since the earliest parchments we have of the New Testament writings are all in Greek, I'm not willing to make the leap to there being Aramaic originals. Plus, being that Greek was the dominant language on the eastern Roman Empire that crossed cultures and peoples, it makes sense that it would have been used even by Jewish writers of the first century--after all, Philo and Joshephus also wrote in Greek.
I do leave the possibility for Matthew being originally in Aramaic as there were several claims to such by second century Christians. However, even with Matthew, I think it is foolish to make claims as to what the Aramaic original said, if it did exist, as it would be nothing more than guessing.
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muffler dragon
Bien. Bien chiludo.
buckeyegrad;1787412; said:
No worries. Hope all is well.
bgrad said:
The part that was particularly interesting is the idiomatic expressions that appear to make clearer sense when stated in Aramaic instead of Greek. I understand your points above though.
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t_BuckeyeScott
Hall of Fame
Coming from the Non Denom background that I do, I looked up the Primacy issues on Wiki for some background. I believe that Jesus likely spoke largely in Aramaic and so I believe that covers a good portion of the passages. I realize that is not all of the examples. But it doesn't have to be that either. I, like Grad, would submit that earliest dated documents were written in Greek. I think that overrides some of the textual analysis.
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muffler dragon
Bien. Bien chiludo.
t_BuckeyeScott;1787460; said:
I should point out that I don't look at Aramaic primacy as a critique so-to-say as much as potentially illuminating vague areas. 'Tis all. Obviously, there are/were more reasons than primacy that led to my departure from Christianity, belief in Jesus in general, etc; however, the primacy part really came into play when I was Messianic. Just happened to be the focus of the crowd I was in at the time.
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Taosman
Your Cousin In New Mexxico
Here's an interesting read. "Morals Without God"
"Can we envision a world without God? Would this world be good? "
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/morals-without-god/
Basically, it's saying that it's in our DNA to act "morally". Or "compassionately" . This from primate studies.
"Can we envision a world without God? Would this world be good? "
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/morals-without-god/
Basically, it's saying that it's in our DNA to act "morally". Or "compassionately" . This from primate studies.
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Jake
Once a Buckeye, always a Buckeye
‘17 The Deuce Champ
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'18 The Deuce Champ
Taosman;1796101; said:
I'm sick and tired of this BS that those of who who don't worship santa claus are without morals, preying on our fellow human beings. When religious people put forth such notions it tells me a lot about them, and what they might do if not for their fear of god.
My morals come from my mind. I know the difference between right and wrong. I don't need some imaginary boogeyman threatening me with eternal damnation to act like a decent human being, and I sure as shit don't need lectured by Al fucking Sharpton.
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Brewtus
.
Agreed. Sam Harris has a new book out on this subject (which I haven't read yet): "The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values"Jake;1797086; said:
A morality system based on ancient texts that claim to be the word of god is inferior to one based on instinctive human values and the collective well being of all mankind. If one were to hypothetically prove that god does not exist my morality would not change, however a religious person would entirely lose their basis of moral authority and have no reason to act in a moral way.
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t_BuckeyeScott
Hall of Fame
Just read his Q & A over on [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Landscape-Science-Determine-Values/dp/1439171211/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287671442&sr=8-1"]Amazon[/ame]Agreed. Sam Harris has a new book out on this subject (which I haven't read yet): "The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values"
A morality system based on ancient texts that claim to be the word of god is inferior to one based on instinctive human values and the collective well being of all mankind. If one were to hypothetically prove that god does not exist my morality would not change, however a religious person would entirely lose their basis of moral authority and have no reason to act in a moral way.
I don't know how this differs from whatever makes me the happiest is moral. Which is the same thing I get from what Nietzshe said.
Edit: To go a bit further he says as as one reviewer states "that morality is about the well-being of conscious creatures". He would have to prove that too.
Then I read more reviews from other atheists about his argument. Color me not impressed.
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