Talking Religion...

[Taosman]

Morgan Trent?

Sunday morning Christian?

 

[Bleed S & G]

Sunday morning Christian?

Uncalled for and shows your true colors.

What's the story with reconciling the problem of evil?

What do you mean by this?

The simple answer is that to believe otherwise would be heretical. The basis for Christian theologic orthodoxy on this subject can be found in the following scripture:

John 14:6 (New International Version)

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The orthodox interpretation of this verse is that unless one accepts that Jesus is the Messiah, one cannot obtain salvation. Or so I have been taught, in any event.

And that means I have to accept Jesus as a divine being?

Lets say Bob is a Christian. He believes in Jesus as God but lives a shitty and sinful life.

Joe is a Jew. He follows the commandments to the T and follows the teachings of Jesus and asks God (not Jesus) for forgiveness.

Who goes to heaven?

 

[MaxBuck]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxBuck
The simple answer is that to believe otherwise would be heretical. The basis for Christian theologic orthodoxy on this subject can be found in the following scripture:

John 14:6 (New International Version)

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The orthodox interpretation of this verse is that unless one accepts that Jesus is the Messiah, one cannot obtain salvation. Or so I have been taught, in any event.

And that means I have to accept Jesus as a divine being?

I was unaware that I said or suggested that you "have to" do anything. I was simply responding to your request for information. And I think my response was accurate.

 

[muffler dragon]

Lets say Bob is a Christian. He believes in Jesus as God but lives a [censored]ty and sinful life.

Joe is a Jew. He follows the commandments to the T and follows the teachings of Jesus and asks God (not Jesus) for forgiveness.

Who goes to heaven?

Talk about your trick question, S&G.

This reminds me of the joke about where the survivor would be buried if the plane landed on the border between US and Canada.

 

[lvbuckeye]

2. Why do so many Biblical literalists think that evolutionary biology is evil and wage war against it (this is not just a crackpot fringe, as evidenced by the number of anti-evolution bills in several state legislatures aimed at introducing creationism into the science curriculum), but they have no trouble with astronomy and geology which also contradict literalist Biblical interpretations?

Why does evolutionary biology get singled out?

because evolution the way it is taught runs counter to the laws of genetics.

 

[Taosman]

Uncalled for and shows your true colors.
That was meant just for my buddy, jwinslow. :tongue2: The guy who called me a Pharisee.

Questioning someones values is never "uncalled for" it gets to the heart of how we feel about people that are different than ourselves. I just want people to examine their beliefs and how they practice them. Believe what you will, just don't try to force those beliefs on others.

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

I am for religious and lifestyle tolerance. As guarantied by our Constitution.
You do believe in our Constitution don't you?

 

[jwinslow]

That was meant just for my buddy, jwinslow.

Was the christian mocking list on the last page just for me, or was that intended to ridicule many all at once?

That was quite the backpedal, so I poked a little fun with the Morgan Trent comment. Care to admit where you were drawing your jab from?

The guy who called me a Pharisee.

Still waiting on that proof, taos... but I imagine you'll keep making this accusation and running from the followup.

Questioning someones values is never "uncalled for" it gets to the heart of how we feel about people that are different than ourselves.

Questioning someone's values and mocking/judging them in a derisive manner are two very different things. Your last few posts in this thread certainly don't fall under the constructive questioning end of the spectrum.

I just want people to examine their beliefs and how they practice them. Believe what you will, just don't try to force those beliefs on others.

You contradict this claim quite often with your shtick on Christianity.

 

[lvbuckeye]

To add to what JimsSweaterVest wrote above, how do you get Genesis to line up with the scientific record? The order and time of appearance of things are incompatible with one another.

Here's what science tells us:
15,000 million years ago: Big Bang
4,600 million years ago: Birth of the Sun, the Earth, and the Moon
3,800 million years ago: Emergence of Life (Pre-cellular Life)
505 million years ago: Spread of Jawless Fishes
408 million years ago: First Amphibians
360 million years ago: First Reptiles
248 million years ago: First Dinosaurs and Mammal-like Reptiles;
213 million years ago: First Birds
4 million years ago: Australopithecus
200 thousand years ago: Homo Sapiens

And here's what Genesis tells us (at least this is what is most commonly accepted since Genesis contradicts itself on the order of appearance):
"Day" 1: Creation of Day and Night
"Day" 2: Creation of Heaven
"Day" 3: Creation of the Earth, the Seas, and the Plants
"Day" 4: Creation of the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars
"Day" 5: Creation of Fishes and Birds
"Day" 6: Creation of Land Animals (Cattle, Insects, Reptiles, the Beasts of the Earth, and Man)
"Day" 7: No Further Emergence of Life Forms on Earth

The orders are not "lined up perfectly" at all. Genesis has day and night appearing 3 "days" before the sun and stars appear. How does that happen? And the Earth is created before the sun, moon and stars. Birds also appear before the other land animals.

Religion and science can never be reconciled if the Bible is interpreted as an accurate historical scientific textbook.

what about the possibility that that when the "Big Bang" occurred the expansion was so rapid that the universe only looks like it's 15 billion years old?

 

[lvbuckeye]

Grad, where do you stand on Wellhausen or Richard Elliott Friedman's documentary hypothesis versus Whybray's...defense, I guess you could call it, of literalism - at least as far as the Word being written in essentially one form since the Patriarchs?

Do you think the Pentateuch was written by Moses, soon after his death, or do you think that the Bible as we now know it was from various sources at various times and then written/edited to its final form?

i'm pretty sure that Moses did not write anything after his death. :p

 

[Taosman]

The guy who called me a Pharisee. Still waiting on that proof, taos... but I imagine you'll keep making this accusation and running from the followup.

You know the "proof" is in the Poli Forum, where I am not allowed.
Your calling me a liar, now? That's making you look worse.

 

[Bleed S & G]

That was meant just for my buddy, jwinslow. :tongue2: The guy who called me a Pharisee.

What I meant by my comment..

When you make a comment like that, you contradict what you appear to stand for.

Questioning someones values is never "uncalled for" it gets to the heart of how we feel about people that are different than ourselves. I just want people to examine their beliefs and how they practice them. Believe what you will, just don't try to force those beliefs on others.

Thats exactly why I like discussing religion. But when you talk down to someone like that you aren't challenging values.. IMO.

I am for religious and lifestyle tolerance. As guarantied by our Constitution.
You do believe in our Constitution don't you?

Seriously?

Lifestyle tolernace is not a part of the constitution by the way.

 

[Bleed S & G]

I was unaware that I said or suggested that you "have to" do anything. I was simply responding to your request for information. And I think my response was accurate.

Max,

I didn't mean to have that comment directed at you.. it's meant to challenge all people who believe the only way to salvation is worshiping Jesus as God. IMO, the logic is flawed.. which my follow up was an attempt to demonstrate that.

By the way, your response was 100% accurate - that is the passage many Christians use as proof you must accept Jesus as God.

Most Christians, and believers of whatever faith, also choose to ignore the passage that says "sell everything, and come follow me." They also ignore the commandments Jesus provides, and rely only on the "accepting Jesus as my Lord" for salvation.

 

[jwinslow]

I've searched for every version of the word pharisee and viewed each result (with none aimed at you), unless it is hidden within one of your threads you deleted when it went badly for you.

You claim your motives are different than in your poli forum days and that you're tolerant of other beliefs, and yet you still continue to ridicule Christianity and individual posters' conduct within those belief systems.

And since you clearly won't drop this 'pharisee' grudge of yours:

I think the author and you are trying to rewrite history to serve your own
Fundementalist view of the world.

Your view and the author's is a Fundelmentist Christian view.

My view is no more or less valid than yours. Or the authors.

And your calling my view "hate filled" just proves what camp you lie in.

I'm still waiting for the evidence and that is the difference. The author provides evidence to support his view, you simply provide a view.

You demand to be heard, while demanding the silence of others.

You are critical of hate, while hating others.

You are against labeling people, while applying labels to others.

You are a pharisee

 

[MaxBuck]

because evolution the way it is taught runs counter to the laws of genetics.

Why on earth would you say this? In point of fact, what we have learned in the past 5 years from genomic research would not have been feasible to learn had we not presupposed the truth of evolution.

 

[muffler dragon]

In point of fact, what we have learned in the past 5 years from genomic research would not have been feasible to learn had we not presupposed the truth of evolution.

Max:

Would you mind elaborating on this? I've not heard/read this before.

Thanks.