Split Thread: End Times Discussion

[lvbuckeye]

I thought you were a historist.

stop. just because i'm an historicist doesn't mean that i believe every event has already occurred. that would be absurd. it should be plainly evident that the Trumpet of the Archangel Michael has not sounded and the Day of the Lord has not yet come... though i think it's getting closer every day.

however, flinging crap against the wall to see what sticks as a manner of interpereting prophecies, especially in light of the fact that many of the prophecies can clearly be seen to have been fulfilled by major historic events of the last two millenium, is willfull ignorance. Daniel was written over 2500 years ago. Revelation was written 2000 years ago. to assume that none of the events have occured yet and that all of them are either 1) current events (which should logically smash the strict preterist view, considering the fact that current event become past events quite quickly), or 2) all in the future, is not feasable (for nearly the same logical conclusion that future events swiftly become events of the past).

while we're on the subject, the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel was completed with the resurrection and ascension of Christ. in the 70 weeks prophecy, 12 things were to take place:

1) to finish transgression: in Christ's curcifixion, the ultimate sacrifice was made, and transgressions ceased for all who believe. Matthew 23:32-36, Acts 3:14-15

2) to make an end of sins: in death, Christ made an end to sin. Hebrews 9:26

3) to make reconcilliation for iniquity: in his Crucifixion, Christ made reconcilliation for our iniquity. II Corinthians 5:19

4) to bring everlasting righteousness: His death and Resurrection broght about everlasting righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21, Romans 3:21-22

5) to seal up the vision and prophecy: Christ's coming sealed up prophecy. Luke 16:16, Acts 3:18

6) to annoint the Most Holy: Christ was annointed at His Baptism. Luke 3:21-22, 4:18-22

7) Jerusalem to be restored: occured during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.

8) Streets and walls rebuilt in troubled times: graphically described in Nehemiah.

9) the Messiah to be cut off: Matthew 27:35

10) the Messiah confirms the convenant: Malachi 3:1, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Matthew 26:28

12) Jerusalem again becomes desolate: instead of being destroyed immediately, Jerusalem was given 40 years to repent, a la Nineveh being given 40 days. 40 years later, Jerusalem was ransacked, and now a mosque sits on the Temple Mount.

11) He causes sacrifice and oblation to cease: Hebrews 10:7-9

the 70th week began with Christ's baptism. 3 1/2 years later, He was cut off, and the 70th week ended with the stoning of Stephen and the end of exlusive ministry in Israel.

i challenge anyone to refute that with a futurist or preterist view.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Grad, are you aware that the futurist and preterist views were originally presented by Cardinal Bellarmine and Father Ribera as a counter measure to the Protestant Reformation? given the readily apparent amount that you have studied (your knowledge admittedly dwarves mine), how can you possibly buy in to the futurist and preterist views given the knowledge that they were an attempt to extinguish the light that had suddenly sprang up in a world of darkness?

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

stop. just because i'm an historicist doesn't mean that i believe every event has already occurred. that would be absurd. it should be plainly evident that the Trumpet of the Archangel Michael has not sounded and the Day of the Lord has not yet come... though i think it's getting closer every day.

however, flinging crap against the wall to see what sticks as a manner of interpereting prophecies, especially in light of the fact that many of the prophecies can clearly be seen to have been fulfilled by major historic events of the last two millenium, is willfull ignorance. Daniel was written over 2500 years ago. Revelation was written 2000 years ago. to assume that none of the events have occured yet and that all of them are either 1) current events (which should logically smash the strict preterist view, considering the fact that current event become past events quite quickly), or 2) all in the future, is not feasable (for nearly the same logical conclusion that future events swiftly become events of the past).

while we're on the subject, the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel was completed with the resurrection and ascension of Christ. in the 70 weeks prophecy, 12 things were to take place:

1) to finish transgression: in Christ's curcifixion, the ultimate sacrifice was made, and transgressions ceased for all who believe. Matthew 23:32-36, Acts 3:14-15

2) to make an end of sins: in death, Christ made an end to sin. Hebrews 9:26

3) to make reconcilliation for iniquity: in his Crucifixion, Christ made reconcilliation for our iniquity. II Corinthians 5:19

4) to bring everlasting righteousness: His death and Resurrection broght about everlasting righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21, Romans 3:21-22

5) to seal up the vision and prophecy: Christ's coming sealed up prophecy. Luke 16:16, Acts 3:18

6) to annoint the Most Holy: Christ was annointed at His Baptism. Luke 3:21-22, 4:18-22

7) Jerusalem to be restored: occured during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.

8) Streets and walls rebuilt in troubled times: graphically described in Nehemiah.

9) the Messiah to be cut off: Matthew 27:35

10) the Messiah confirms the convenant: Malachi 3:1, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Matthew 26:28

12) Jerusalem again becomes desolate: instead of being destroyed immediately, Jerusalem was given 40 years to repent, a la Nineveh being given 40 days. 40 years later, Jerusalem was ransacked, and now a mosque sits on the Temple Mount.

11) He causes sacrifice and oblation to cease: Hebrews 10:7-9

the 70th week began with Christ's baptism. 3 1/2 years later, He was cut off, and the 70th week ended with the stoning of Stephen and the end of exlusive ministry in Israel.

i challenge anyone to refute that with a futurist or preterist view.

Well mostly I'm confused why Daniel would be Prohpesying and then all the sudden be refering to events that already happened 300 years ealier in Ezra and Nehemiah. But it would take some time to go through all of that.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Well mostly I'm confused why Daniel would be Prohpesying and then all the sudden be refering to events that already happened 300 years ealier in Ezra and Nehemiah. But it would take some time to go through all of that.

i think you need to check your dates. Daniel 1:12 "And Daniel continued even until the first year of King Cyrus." Cyrus began his rule in 539 BC. Daniel was dead when Jerusalem was restored.

there were three decrees to Ezra, which allowed Jerusalem to be rebuilt:
1) King Cyrus in 535 BC. Ezra 1:2
2) King Darius' in 520 BC. Ezra 6:8
3) King Artexerxes decree in 457 BC. Ezra 7:12

there was no decree to Nehemiah. he merely requested the wood that was already provided for in the decree, and time off from his position as 'Xerxes cup bearer to carry out the decree.

the start of the 70 week prophecy began when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem went out: "Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:25

 

[buckeyegrad]

Grad, are you aware that the futurist and preterist views were originally presented by Cardinal Bellarmine and Father Ribera as a counter measure to the Protestant Reformation? given the readily apparent amount that you have studied (your knowledge admittedly dwarves mine), how can you possibly buy in to the futurist and preterist views given the knowledge that they were an attempt to extinguish the light that had suddenly sprang up in a world of darkness?

I am have heard this claim, but from what I have read, the preterist and futurist interpretations over the last two centuries have very little to do with these Catholic's arguments, especially since they originate out of the conservative Protestant sects. A major emphasis of these writers lacking in the commentators from the Reformation and Counter-Reformation periods is an awareness of Old Testament prophetic symbols and first-century Christian perspectives.

while we're on the subject, the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel was completed with the resurrection and ascension of Christ. in the 70 weeks prophecy, 12 things were to take place

I'm in agreement with you here.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

lvbuckeye[/b]]

stop. just because i'm an historicist doesn't mean that i believe every event has already occurred. that would be absurd. it should be plainly evident that the Trumpet of the Archangel Michael has not sounded and the Day of the Lord has not yet come... though i think it's getting closer every day.

however, flinging crap against the wall to see what sticks as a manner of interpereting prophecies, especially in light of the fact that many of the prophecies can clearly be seen to have been fulfilled by major historic events of the last two millenium, is willfull ignorance. Daniel was written over 2500 years ago. Revelation was written 2000 years ago. to assume that none of the events have occured yet and that all of them are either 1) current events (which should logically smash the strict preterist view, considering the fact that current event become past events quite quickly), or 2) all in the future, is not feasable (for nearly the same logical conclusion that future events swiftly become events of the past).

while we're on the subject, the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel was completed with the resurrection and ascension of Christ. in the 70 weeks prophecy, 12 things were to take place:

1) to finish transgression: in Christ's curcifixion, the ultimate sacrifice was made, and transgressions ceased for all who believe. Matthew 23:32-36, Acts 3:14-15

2) to make an end of sins: in death, Christ made an end to sin. Hebrews 9:26

3) to make reconcilliation for iniquity: in his Crucifixion, Christ made reconcilliation for our iniquity. II Corinthians 5:19

4) to bring everlasting righteousness: His death and Resurrection broght about everlasting righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21, Romans 3:21-22

5) to seal up the vision and prophecy: Christ's coming sealed up prophecy. Luke 16:16, Acts 3:18

6) to annoint the Most Holy: Christ was annointed at His Baptism. Luke 3:21-22, 4:18-22

7) Jerusalem to be restored: occured during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.

8) Streets and walls rebuilt in troubled times: graphically described in Nehemiah.

9) the Messiah to be cut off: Matthew 27:35

10) the Messiah confirms the convenant: Malachi 3:1, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Matthew 26:28

12) Jerusalem again becomes desolate: instead of being destroyed immediately, Jerusalem was given 40 years to repent, a la Nineveh being given 40 days. 40 years later, Jerusalem was ransacked, and now a mosque sits on the Temple Mount.

11) He causes sacrifice and oblation to cease: Hebrews 10:7-9

the 70th week began with Christ's baptism. 3 1/2 years later, He was cut off, and the 70th week ended with the stoning of Stephen and the end of exlusive ministry in Israel.

i challenge anyone to refute that with a futurist or preterist view.

Earlier that was bad timeline, sorry.

Do we agree that the KJV week is a 7 year period?

But I have another
link

In his book, The Coming Prince, [1] Sir Robert Anderson explains that this period would have to be predicated on the Babylonian calendar of 360 days per year. Thus, 483 years would be 173,880 days. On March 14, 445 B.C., King Artaxerxes of Persia gave the commandment to Nehemiah to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. 173,880 days later brings us to April 6, 32 A.D. This was the date when Christ made His triumphant entry into the city of Jerusalem (according to Anderson's calculations). [2]

This is also in line with Jesus telling his Mother it wasn't his time when he made Water into Wine and the other healings when he told them not to tell.
Also isn't Christ's covenant everlasting while the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is for 1 Seven(week)
Nero nor Titus didn't (and wouldn't have) abominated(make filthy) the Temple. They did destroy it but there is a difference. Also this is supposed to happen in the middle of the 70th week.
Jesus said in Matt 24:15

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Clearly someone is going to be standing in temple and Defile it. Standing in not destroying.

One other thing the temple is destroyed in verse 26 then defiled in 27 where Jesus notes the abomination of Desolation standing in the temple. Timeline of the book suggests that the Temple needs to be rebuilt - which preparations are happening right now.

 

[buckeyegrad]

Remember the part in Revelation 4:1 about things to come. Wasn't Revelation written after the temple was destroyed?

Depends on when you date the Book of Revelation. Most scholars point to 95 A.D. based upon a writing by Irenaeus. The problem with the date mentioned by Irenaeus is it is unclear whether he means John had his vision in 95 A.D. or if Polycarp, Irenaeus' mentor who had known John, had last seen the apostle in 95 A.D. There is a growing group of scholars who believe the later and argue the Revelation dates before the destruction of the Temple during Nero's persecutions. They base their arguments on what they believe are internal evidences in the text.

A great book for the history of Revelation's interpretation and a passage by passage comparison of how the historicist, preterist, futurist, and spiritual views interpret Revelation is Steve Gregg's Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary. Seeing the four views contasted against each other is what lead me to the development of a partial-preterist view of the book.

Also the Church isn't appointed for wrath 1 Thess 5

Agree. This is why I believe the rapture occurs right before the 7 bowls of God's wrath are poured upon the Earth. Revelation 14:14-20 sounds like a description of it to me. However, here again, I admit I could be wrong. While I would identify myself in the mid-tribulation rapture camp, I know I could be wrong and that pre-tribulation and post-tribulation arguments could also be valid.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

One reason why I believe in Pre and while not directly stated here it is. Church appears over 20 times in the first 3 Chapters. None after the beggining of 4. It only talks about Israel. Also wouldn't the rapture clear the path for an actual world king Anti-Christ. Without the Church the whole idea seems much more feasible(although Like you, I could be wrong too,oh well, I just find this topic interesting)

Doesn't the abomination of desolation seem such an entirely huge deal that if it had already happened we might actually know what it is?

 

[lvbuckeye]

Earlier that was bad timeline, sorry.

Do we agree that the KJV week is a 7 year period?

cool...
yup...

But I have another
link
This is also in line with Jesus telling his Mother it wasn't his time when he made Water into Wine and the other healings when he told them not to tell.
Also isn't Christ's covenant everlasting while the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is for 1 Seven(week)
Nero nor Titus didn't (and wouldn't have) abominated(make filthy) the Temple. They did destroy it but there is a difference. Also this is supposed to happen in the middle of the 70th week.
Jesus said in Matt 24:15
Clearly someone is going to be standing in temple and Defile it. Standing in not destroying.

One other thing the temple is destroyed in verse 26 then defiled in 27 where Jesus notes the abomination of Desolation standing in the temple. Timeline of the book suggests that the Temple needs to be rebuilt - which preparations are happening right now.

i think that in this case, it is important to look at the texts in Matthew and Daniel side by side.

Daniel 9:26: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined"

the text in Matthew, to me, is fairly clear that Christ was telling His disciples of the things to come after His ascent, specifically in 24:2: "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.'

again, i am fairly certain that the destruction of the city and sanctuary in Daniel were paralleled by Christ words in Matthew.

Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Matthew 24:25 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.)"

the verse in Daniel is saying a LOT. first off, it says that Christ shall confirm his covenant with many for one week, which began with the advent of Christ's ministry at His baptism. in the midst of the week, or 3.5 years into His ministry, when Christ became the Ultimate Sacrifice with His crucifixion, He would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, which occured when Christ gave up the ghost, and died. at that exact moment, there was an earthquake, and the veil into the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom (which is important because it symbolizes God taking away the sacrifice from above, not man from below) and there has never been another blood sacrifice since. think about that. for the Jews, the Yom Kippur sacrifices of the Day of Atonement have not been completed for nearly 2000 years. finally, Jerusalem was ransacked so that not one stone of the Temple stood upon another, and due to ever increasing abominations in the eyes of The Lord, Jerusalem, or more specifically, the Jews have increasingly become more and more desolate, even to the point that a Mosque now rests on the Temple Mount.

i guess it should be noted that when the word 'abomination' is used in Scripture, it is referring to a false god. Chemosh is the abomination of Moab, Molech is the abomination of Ammon. is not the abomination of desolation any false god that defiles the Most High?

i think that the correct interperetation should be that after the sacrfice and oblation had ceased (because it wasn't needed any more due to Christ's ultimate sacrifice),and when the jews had rejected Christ, that the prince (i'm pretty sure you know who he is) came to destroy the sanctuary of the One True God, by spreading his false gods, and desolating the jews until the time of the Gentiles has ceased.

the abomination of desolation has already been set up (for nearly two millenia), and the tribulation has been ongoing.

 

[Bleed S & G]

The desolation takes place in babylon i thought.. i ask some of those who are more well versed than I, where does the US fit in? Babylon?

I've read the time of the gentiles came to an end in 1997.. this source also claimed that 2027 (the 40th jubilee) marked the coming of the messiah. corresponds with the 30 years of the wars of the end, and the month of mourning of Moses

 

[buckeyegrad]

The desolation takes place in babylon i thought.. i ask some of those who are more well versed than I, where does the US fit in? Babylon?

I've read the time of the gentiles came to an end in 1997.. this source also claimed that 2027 (the 40th jubilee) marked the coming of the messiah. corresponds with the 30 years of the wars of the end, and the month of mourning of Moses

Here's the problem, where in Scripture does it talk about "the time of the Gentiles"? That principle comes from dispensational theology, not the World of God.

 

[Jagdaddy]

An antichrist as the new testament describes:
John 2:22 "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist; he denies the Father and the Son." John 4:3 he adds "?but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

Well, I guess I'm an antichrist then . . . and all this time I thought I was Tiger Woods . . .

 

[lvbuckeye]

The desolation takes place in babylon i thought.. i ask some of those who are more well versed than I, where does the US fit in? Babylon?

where was Babylon located? who now controls Babylon? the answers are Iraq, and the United States.

I've read the time of the gentiles came to an end in 1997.. this source also claimed that 2027 (the 40th jubilee) marked the coming of the messiah. corresponds with the 30 years of the wars of the end, and the month of mourning of Moses

okay...

 

[Bleed S & G]

where was Babylon located? who now controls Babylon? the answers are Iraq, and the United States.

okay...

I know Babylon was originally Iraq and that the US now occupies the country. However, the concept of Babylon is more of the material world than geographic location. If these events are taking place today, Iraq is not Babylon. According to Isaiah 14 Babylon is mans rebellion against God through satan. Its important to note Isaiah prophesied this hundreds of years before Babylon became a city.

In regards to the time of the gentiles.. i was just sharing some information i've come across looking for some articles to back up some claims. The author used a cool method of comparing St. Malachy's & Nostradomus' end of times revelations and then used a jubilee system to dictate what was done when and what would happen in the future. take it for what its worth because all of these predictions have the same thing in common: none have come true yet.

One of the other things they discussed were the "laser cannons" being mounted and used to "destroy resistance".. interestingly enough the discovery channels future weapons was talking how lasers will be installed to help protect us from nukes coming across the seas.

"Well, I guess I'm an antichrist then . . . and all this time I thought I was Tiger Woods . . ."

Yes you are, and we were all made from clay in one day, and then God got to rest...

Here's the problem, where in Scripture does it talk about "the time of the Gentiles"? That principle comes from dispensational theology, not the World of God.

Agreed.. this is one of the problems i have with the "rapture".. I?ve not found anything about this.. im assuming you can clear this up because its a question that?s imparitve to be answered. Why? Because when this "antichrist" comes, if its in our time or ever, the idea is to deceive the world into thinking he is the manifestation of God (which is exactly what the Islamic end of times prophecy is [my understanding at least]: their messiah arrives and the world is in peace under the one religion when compared to the Christian version, the antichrist comes first and establishes the beast system)

So if there is no such thing as a rapture, couldn't the Islamic messiah perform raptures in order to deceive people into believing he is the Christ, since the rapture of the faithful seems to be the big sign we as humans look for.

The so-called "rapture" described in the NT can easily be the time after Christ returns. Its a new doctrine, respectively that could easily aid in deception.. among hundreds of other things (mostly human concepts derived from the book, and in the case of the rapture idea; to merely have hope)

 

[lvbuckeye]

I know Babylon was originally Iraq and that the US now occupies the country. However, the concept of Babylon is more of the material world than geographic location. If these events are taking place today, Iraq is not Babylon. According to Isaiah 14 Babylon is mans rebellion against God through satan. Its important to note Isaiah prophesied this hundreds of years before Babylon became a city.

you are correct, except that Babylon in prophecy is ALWAYS ascociated with a world power. the United States fits that bill. BTW, Hammurabi ruled in Babylon around 1,000 years before Isaiah was born. Babylon has been around for a LOOOONG time.

In regards to the time of the gentiles.. i was just sharing some information i've come across looking for some articles to back up some claims. The author used a cool method of comparing St. Malachy's & Nostradomus' end of times revelations and then used a jubilee system to dictate what was done when and what would happen in the future. take it for what its worth because all of these predictions have the same thing in common: none have come true yet.

not sure what to say regarding Naostradamus and Malachy, except to note that the Bible says that if anyone calls himself a prophet, and so much as ONE prophecy does not come true, to stone him as a liar. ALL Biblical prophecy comes true. man, not so much.

One of the other things they discussed were the "laser cannons" being mounted and used to "destroy resistance".. interestingly enough the discovery channels future weapons was talking how lasers will be installed to help protect us from nukes coming across the seas.

heard rumors in the recent Israel-Lebanon fight that Israeli soldiers were using some kind of weapons that melted flesh off the bone...

Agreed.. this is one of the problems i have with the "rapture".. I?ve not found anything about this.. im assuming you can clear this up because its a question that?s imparitve to be answered. Why? Because when this "antichrist" comes, if its in our time or ever, the idea is to deceive the world into thinking he is the manifestation of God (which is exactly what the Islamic end of times prophecy is [my understanding at least]: their messiah arrives and the world is in peace under the one religion when compared to the Christian version, the antichrist comes first and establishes the beast system)

for fear of offending, i won't adress this.

So if there is no such thing as a rapture, couldn't the Islamic messiah perform raptures in order to deceive people into believing he is the Christ, since the rapture of the faithful seems to be the big sign we as humans look for.

The so-called "rapture" described in the NT can easily be the time after Christ returns. Its a new doctrine, respectively that could easily aid in deception.. among hundreds of other things (mostly human concepts derived from the book, and in the case of the rapture idea; to merely have hope)

first, it is improtant to note that the word rapture does NOT occur in the Bible. second, in the verses which are often pointed to in reference for the rapture, it is quite often ignored that the time when the living believers are 'caught up' occurs on THE LAST DAY. there can't be any tribulation after the last day. the last day is the LAST DAY.

this link spells out several problems with a 'pre-trib' rapture