Split Thread: End Times Discussion

[lvbuckeye]

This is more in tune with what I was thinking. If you begin to think of the real consequences of the United States no longer existing, or even being crippled for a duration of time, you begin to realize how our presence keeps everyone else at bay from enacting their true nationalistic, ideological, religious, and ego-driven desires.

by imposing our own...

as far as that is concerned, was the entire globe a clusterfuck before 1492? the answer is a resounding NO. numerous empires have come and gone, and the world keeps ticking along just fine... now as to whether or not you are asking ifthe U.S is the last Babylon, that's a whole new line of questioning...

 

[buckeyegrad]

now as to whether or not you are asking ifthe U.S is the last Babylon, that's a whole new line of questioning...

No, it is not an interesting question because anyone who knows even the basics of exegetical eschatology would tell you how absurd that idea is. Not because of the character of the United States, but because of how the prophesy reads in Revelation.

If you take the preterist view of Revelation, then the Babylon mentioned can only be one thing, the ancient Roman Empire. However, if you take a partial-preterist view (such as myself) or a futurist view, then it is clear that the beast symbolizes the nation of the anti-christ, who will appear at the end of days. This beast emerges from the sea (chapter 13), which if you compare the symbolism to that used in Daniel, tells us it will be a gentile nation that surrounds Israel (sea=Gentile nations; land=Israel). In the contemporary context (i.e. if we are approaching the final fulfillment of the prophesies in Revelation) only the Muslim nations meet this prophesy.

 

[lvbuckeye]

No, it is not an interesting question because anyone who knows even the basics of exegetical eschatology would tell you how absurd that idea is. Not because of the character of the United States, but because of how the prophesy reads in Revelation.

If you take the preterist view of Revelation, then the Babylon mentioned can only be one thing, the ancient Roman Empire. However, if you take a partial-preterist view (such as myself) or a futurist view, then it is clear that the beast symbolizes the nation of the anti-christ, who will appear at the end of days. This beast emerges from the sea (chapter 13), which if you compare the symbolism to that used in Daniel, tells us it will be a gentile nation that surrounds Israel (sea=Gentile nations; land=Israel). In the contemporary context (i.e. if we are approaching the final fulfillment of the prophesies in Revelation) only the Muslim nations meet this prophesy.

i don't think that fits at all. first off, there are two beasts in Rev 13. a couple sticking points are that Islam does not rule the world, there is not one Muslin leader in which the entire world looks in wonder. and Islam has not ruled the world for 1260 years. if you want to look at where Islam fits into Revelation prophecy, perhaps it is better to look at Revelation 9, which quite neatly describes the rise of Islam, including the fallen star (stars are symbolic of royalty, and Muhammed was a fallen prince) and the sweeping destruction that it brought, up to and including the fact that the marauding Muslims were ordered not to harm any fruit trees or seed bearing plants ( v.4)

that being said, many people believe that Revelation is a story twice told, once from a political and once from a religious veiwpoint. if you take a political historicist view, the beast that was wounded and revived is the Roman Empire which was miraculously revived as the Roman Church, and the Pope is the antichrist. from an Ecclesiatical view, the beast is the apostate church, which is referred to as The Mother of Harlots and Babylon.

also, i find the preterist view to be very unsatisfactory, akin to throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. too many people see one portion that could fit into their pressupposed ideas, and read it as gospel without looking at the context...

BTW, re: 'the beast rising from the sea.' is not the United States a nation that has risen from the sea? where would we be if Columbus never went on that voyage?

 

[Bleed S & G]

i don't think that fits at all. first off, there are two beasts in Rev 13. a couple sticking points are that Islam does not rule the world, there is not one Muslin leader in which the entire world looks in wonder. and Islam has not ruled the world for 1260 years. if you want to look at where Islam fits into Revelation prophecy, perhaps it is better to look at Revelation 9, which quite neatly describes the rise of Islam, and the sweeping destruction that it brought, up to and including the fact that the marauding Muslims were ordered not to harm any fruit trees or seed bearling plants ( v.4)

that being said, many people believe that Revelation is a story twice told, once from a political and once from a religious veiwpoint. if you take a political historicist view, the beast that was wounded and revived is the Roman Empire which was miraculously revived as the Roman Church, and the Pope is the antichrist. from an Ecclesiatical view, the beast is the apostate church, which is referred to as The Mother of Harlots and Babylon.

Well their are more than one "antichrist" and some popes were antichrists.. there were in even antichrists in the time of Christ as said by Himself.

An antichrist as the new testament describes:
John 2:22 "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist; he denies the Father and the Son." John 4:3 he adds "?but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

Incontrast, heres the Holy Qu'ran
"?the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" -Surah 9:30
People who believe in Christ are likened to "unbelievers" and infidels. They deny the cross and the trinty. In islams story, their second coming of christ is very very similar to our coming of the antichrist.

Islams goal has been to be the one religion that rules over the entire world (and is the purpose of the jihad, convert or die, that whole bit)

The leader that they dont have is the 'man' the iranian president believes is coming back through bloodshed (and in a theological letter to bush claims that iran and the ME is ready to follow once he arrives)

Time will tell, and we'll see but the ONE thing that makes me put the mysterious book of revelation in modern day times is St. Malachy's uncanny predicitons of every pope thus far, and this pope.. Pope Benedict (the "glory of the olives" in the prophecy -- the benedictian order are the olives)
is the last pope.. the benedictians added on another popes name later to disassociate themselves with the anti-christ.

Also, i believe it was Pope Pius who (was a benedictian) had a vision where one later in time, from "his order" stepped through the dead bodies of all the priests as he made his way out from the vatican.. perhaps the Popes comments earlier this year has already paved the way for these events.

The word Islam means "submission"..
Devote Muslims submit to Allah.
Christ submits to humanity.

Christ fulfilled revelations.. Mohammed had revelations conventianly (sword, adulterer, treaty breaking, murdering) and was contradicitons where as Christ was the truth.
^thats fact wheter or not you believe in anything or not.

1260 years shouldn't be taken literally. Its interesting that prior to the coming of the true Messiah, 2 prophets will take their place in Jeursalem and wont be touched for the 1260 days they prophicise (sp?). During this time they shove the Gods of the people down their throats like Moses did in egypt. Then there killed, 3 days later risen and then its the second coming.

There are still many mysterious yet to unfold if this is the end of times, so we'll see but the argument for Islam being the antichrist is definatly there.. this whole Iranian president thing though..

 

[lvbuckeye]

1260 years shouldn't be taken literally.

perhaps, but it must be noted that the time encompassed between the rise of the Roman Church to its ultimate fall with the French Revolution was 1260 years. FWIW, i'm an historicist.

here are a couple links:
http://www.1335.com/othertopics.html
http://www.historicist.com/

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

How could the battle of Gog and Magog be explained other than the events happening right now? Persia and Russia have never been military allies before?

 

[buckeyegrad]

i don't think that fits at all. first off, there are two beasts in Rev 13. a couple sticking points are that Islam does not rule the world, there is not one Muslin leader in which the entire world looks in wonder. and Islam has not ruled the world for 1260 years. if you want to look at where Islam fits into Revelation prophecy, perhaps it is better to look at Revelation 9, which quite neatly describes the rise of Islam, including the fallen star (stars are symbolic of royalty, and Muhammed was a fallen prince) and the sweeping destruction that it brought, up to and including the fact that the marauding Muslims were ordered not to harm any fruit trees or seed bearing plants ( v.4)

First things first, if you are going to understand any of the symbolism in Revelation, you cannot interpret them through a modern context. The book was written to the seven churches in Asia minor at the end of the first century (possibly earlier depending on how the translation of Ireaneus' account of John is understood). Therefore, you have to look at it from how those people would have understood the book. If you don't do this, you will get everything completely wrong. Therefore, the use of stars as a symbol for Islam makes zero sense as the religion didn't even exist at the time John wrote the book and therefore would have zero meaning to the churches the Revelation was addressed to.

Yes, there are two beasts in Revelation. The first comes from the sea and matches the description of Babylon in the 17th Chapter. The second comes from the land, which is the false prophet. Now if you use the Old Testament writings, something the early churches of Asia Minor would be very familiar, the sea represents the Gentile Nations that surround Israel, while the land represents Israel itself.

I'm not sure what you mean by 1260 years, as the Word says days, and I see no reason to interpret a day as equal to a year in this instance. The princple of a day=year actually isn't found in anyone's commentaries on Revelation until the year 1190 A.D. by Abbot Joachim of Floris. It wasn't until the Reformation that the years were then applied to the papacy in order to equate Rome with the anti-christ's kingdom.

As for my application of Scripture to the Muslims, I said they fit the prophesy if we are quickly approaching the End Times. If we are not, then other nations and peoples might arise in the future centuries to replace them.

that being said, many people believe that Revelation is a story twice told, once from a political and once from a religious veiwpoint. if you take a political historicist view, the beast that was wounded and revived is the Roman Empire which was miraculously revived as the Roman Church, and the Pope is the antichrist. from an Ecclesiatical view, the beast is the apostate church, which is referred to as The Mother of Harlots and Babylon.

also, i find the preterist view to be very unsatisfactory, akin to throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. too many people see one portion that could fit into their pressupposed ideas, and read it as gospel without looking at the context...

It is strange that your description of the preterist view is exactly my perception of the historicist view. The Reformers tried to apply Revelation from their understanding instead of the first century church's perspective. Hence, they misapplied the prophesies in order to attack Papal authority and then took their interpretation as gospel without looking at the context of those to whom the book was written.

The Harlot that sits upon the Beast in Revelation 18 is most likely the apostate church. (The Beast itself represents a political entity.) The Harlot will include many elements of Catholicism, but also every other form of Christianity that have corrupted the Word with mans' traditions. Why do I beleive the Harlot represent the apostate church? Because I am once again applying Old Testament symbolism to the vision in Revelation, and apostate Isreal is constantly referred to as a Harlot in those instances.

As for the preterist view, I disagree with it as well. Like I said, I take a partial-preterist view, which could also be called a partial-futurist view. In other words, I believe the prophesies in books 4-9 have already been fullfilled, but books 10-22 have not. (I also admit I could be completely wrong on this and try not to judge full preterists and full futurists)

BTW, re: 'the beast rising from the sea.' is not the United States a nation that has risen from the sea? where would we be if Columbus never went on that voyage?

Again, doesn't work as the first century church would have no understanding of such a fullfilling of the prophesy. And really, that appears to me as "akin to throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks".

 

[lvbuckeye]

How could the battle of Gog and Magog be explained other than the events happening right now? Persia and Russia have never been military allies before?

let's see. i didn't say that they weren't happening right now. in fact, i find it quite interesting that George H.W. Bush's nickname in Skull and Bones is Magog.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

let's see. i didn't say that they weren't happening right now. in fact, i find it quite interesting that George H.W. Bush's nickname in Skull and Bones is Magog.

I thought you were a historist.

 

[buckeyegrad]

let's see. i didn't say that they weren't happening right now. in fact, i find it quite interesting that George H.W. Bush's nickname in Skull and Bones is Magog.

That is irrelevant as the member of Skull and Bones who has had the most sex always gets the name Magog (I have no idea why). Since George H.W. Bush was married while in college, he had the most sex and was given the name.

 

[Bleed S & G]

let's see. i didn't say that they weren't happening right now. in fact, i find it quite interesting that George H.W. Bush's nickname in Skull and Bones is Magog.

Gog and Magog are identified as nations in revelation who battle because of deception (no WMDs in Iraq even though all signs pointed to yes?)

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

First things first, if you are going to understand any of the symbolism in Revelation, you cannot interpret them through a modern context. The book was written to the seven churches in Asia minor at the end of the first century (possibly earlier depending on how the translation of Ireaneus' account of John is understood). Therefore, you have to look at it from how those people would have understood the book. If you don't do this, you will get everything completely wrong. Therefore, the use of stars as a symbol for Islam makes zero sense as the religion didn't even exist at the time John wrote the book and therefore would have zero meaning to the churches the Revelation was addressed to.

Yes, there are two beasts in Revelation. The first comes from the sea and matches the description of Babylon in the 17th Chapter. The second comes from the land, which is the false prophet. Now if you use the Old Testament writings, something the early churches of Asia Minor would be very familiar, the sea represents the Gentile Nations that surround Israel, while the land represents Israel itself.

I'm not sure what you mean by 1260 years, as the Word says days, and I see no reason to interpret a day as equal to a year in this instance. The princple of a day=year actually isn't found in anyone's commentaries on Revelation until the year 1190 A.D. by Abbot Joachim of Floris. It wasn't until the Reformation that the years were then applied to the papacy in order to equate Rome with the anti-christ's kingdom.

As for my application of Scripture to the Muslims, I said they fit the prophesy if we are quickly approaching the End Times. If we are not, then other nations and peoples might arise in the future centuries to replace them.



It is strange that your description of the preterist view is exactly my perception of the historicist view. The Reformers tried to apply Revelation from their understanding instead of the first century church's perspective. Hence, they misapplied the prophesies in order to attack Papal authority and then took their interpretation as gospel without looking at the context of those to whom the book was written.

The Harlot that sits upon the Beast in Revelation 18 is most likely the apostate church. (The Beast itself represents a political entity.) The Harlot will include many elements of Catholicism, but also every other form of Christianity that have corrupted the Word with mans' traditions. Why do I beleive the Harlot represent the apostate church? Because I am once again applying Old Testament symbolism to the vision in Revelation, and apostate Isreal is constantly referred to as a Harlot in those instances.

As for the preterist view, I disagree with it as well. Like I said, I take a partial-preterist view, which could also be called a partial-futurist view. In other words, I believe the prophesies in books 4-9 have already been fullfilled, but books 10-22 have not. (I also admit I could be completely wrong on this and try not to judge full preterists and full futurists)



Again, doesn't work as the first century church would have no understanding of such a fullfilling of the prophesy. And really, that appears to me as "akin to throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks".

Revelation 4
1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

I don't see how for instance the 144,000 12Gs from each tribe have already happened, have already come to Christ.

Obviously I'm a futurist from 4 on.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Gog and Magog are described in great detail in Ezekial 38-39.

 

[buckeyegrad]

I don't see how for instance the 144,000 12Gs from each tribe have already happened, have already come to Christ.

That's a fair criticism; like I said, I admit that I may be wrong. However, I would respond by asking do we know how many Jews came to Christ before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD?

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Remember the part in Revelation 4:1 about things to come. Wasn't Revelation written after the temple was destroyed? Also the Church isn't appointed for wrath 1 Thess 5.