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Speed

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osugrad21;1145971; said:
...but the variables will never be the same with hand timing.
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Of course, but do any of the high school combines use laser timing? So I'm going by the most accurate way to do this that's available. At least a hand time gives you a starting point and I imagine the combines are pretty standard.

Still, that's not really my point. Whether Harvin and Ginn run 4.1's or 4.7's, they're considered to have similar speed. Jackson, granted there wasn't a whole lot of footage to judge from, didn't seem to have that same gear that those two had yet he was listed with a similar 40 time. That's why I was skeptical. But like LJB pointed out, track speed doesn't always translate onto the football field.
 
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OregonBuckeye;1145978; said:
Of course, but do any of the high school combines use laser timing? At least a hand time gives you a starting point and I imagine the combines are pretty standard.

Still, that's not really my point. Whether Harvin and Ginn run 4.1's or 4.7's, they're considered to have similar speed. Jackson, granted there wasn't a whole lot of footage to judge from, didn't seem to have that same gear that those two had yet he was listed with a similar 40 time. That's why I was skeptical. But like LJB pointed out, track speed doesn't always translate onto the football field.
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Here is a compromise...anything under 4.5 is fast. Kids who can run like that and make various kinesthetic movements while maintaining that speed usually excel in a sport like football.

The 40 is overrated...just like the bench press.

They are "pretty" numbers to brag about.

Some players "look" faster...Robert Smith is a perfect example. His "gliding" masked just how fast he was moving. Before you knew it, he was turning the corner and rolling down the sideline.
 
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osugrad21 said:
Here is a compromise...anything under 4.5 is fast. Kids who can run like that and make various kinesthetic movements while maintaining that speed usually excel in a sport like football.

The 40 is overrated...just like the bench press.

They are "pretty" numbers to brag about.

Some players "look" faster...Robert Smith is a perfect example. His "gliding" masked just how fast he was moving. Before you knew it, he was turning the corner and rolling down the sideline.
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turning and rolling? the dude was gone. he was there, he was there, he was gone. in much the same way teddy was robert smith made you hold your breath every time he touched the ball. the difference was smith had 20 touches, teddy 8 (or some similar number)
 
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OregonBuckeye;1145968; said:
May I ask why you're making this so difficult?

I really don't care if it isn't the most accurate way to time a 40. When you compare something, you want the variables to be the same or as close to it as possible. I have little problem comparing combine times, even if they don't account for human error. I don't even know why I'm discussing timing methods because it really has nothing to do with what I said.

Pretty much the entire point of my post was he doesn't look like a Ginn or Harvin on film and those guys were regarded as low 4.3 guys coming out of high school.
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I apologize for making it difficult, but I'm not sure what you're arguing or what you're finding difficult at this point. Combine times don't "account" for human error, they eliminate it. Accurate 40-yard dash timing methods are obviously relevant to your question of whether Jackson's reported 40 time is accurate. And generally speaking, HS forty times are inaccurate: they're generally rife with not just human error, but intentional stat-padding. As grad pointed out, there is no accurate way to equalize that. So the point is, don't worry too much about Jackson's listed 40 time. It's not accurate. Neither, most likely, was Ginn's. And going further, Jackson likely isn't as fast as Ginn, based simply on watching Ginn play, and seeing a level of speed that very few possess. A lot of wide receivers who would commonly be viewed as "burners"/"game-breakers" aren't as fast as Ginn.
 
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Boooo hand timing vs electronic timing debates. 40 times, no matter how you do it, are bunk when measuring 'football speed.' For one, 40s aren't timed with pads on. For another, the first step off the line might account for 0.2s to 0.6s of the end time. Hell, that can be up to 15% of the end result. Ditto the arbitrary judgment of an official if timing into a running start.

As far as I'm concerned, I only look at two things on the football field when rating speed:

1. Is the guy in the lead a two-stepper?

2. Is there anybody else on the field that can catch the guy in the lead?

:)
 
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Dryden;1146103; said:
Boooo hand timing vs electronic timing debates. 40 times, no matter how you do it, are bunk when measuring 'football speed.' For one, 40s aren't timed with pads on. For another, the first step off the line might account for 0.2s to 0.6s of the end time. Hell, that can be up to 15% of the end result. Ditto the arbitrary judgment of an official if timing into a running start.

As far as I'm concerned, I only look at two things on the football field when rating speed:

1. Is the guy in the lead a two-stepper?

2. Is there anybody else on the field that can catch the guy in the lead?

:)
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What is this "two stepper" you speak of?
 
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TwoStep%20Small.jpg


What do I win?
 
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IronBuckI;1147123; said:
People like to say that speed is something that you can't teach, even though that's false (see:speed coach).
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zincfinger;1147142; said:
Perhaps this belongs in the "Speed" thread, but the notion that "you can't teach speed" is not false. Sure, you can tweak speed a little bit, hence the presence of a speed coach. Guys who are naturally fast can be helped to become a little faster. But in comparison to something like, say, the techniques of a given football position, speed is not something that can be picked up through practice. Guys who are great athletes but with little football-specific skill can be taught to become great football players. An example would be Antonio Gates, or heck, even Vernon Gholston (still a work in progress in that regard). But guys who are naturally slow-to-average cannot be taught to be really fast. In contrast to things which are actually learn-able, speed can only be improved marginally through practice.
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I agree that this should be discussed in this thread, and not in Saine's thread. But...

The skills that you talk about also require already present athletic ability. I'm not saying that, if given enough training, that I will ever be able to run a sub 4.7 second 40. I am saying that given enough training that my speed could be drastically improved. Just like, given enough training, Vernon Gholston or Antonio Gates did/will drastically improve their skills. I'd like to go into more detail, but I type slowly(maybe I should get some training for that:biggrin: ) and I've got dinner reservations...maybe later.
 
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You can have the fastest man in the history of Man Kind on your team, but if he can't play football, he isn't going to help you much. Of course everyone wants to have a fast team, it does help. But give me a guy that gives 100% on every play, knows how to play his position better than anyone, and has the Heart to go out there whether he is 100% or seriously injured, over a guy that is purely a speed guy.:)
 
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