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So. California Burning to the Ground-Again!

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ORD_Buckeye;969897; said:
To paraphrase Sam Kinnison, "move to where the water is."

Seriously, they live in a frickin' desert, and we're supposed to subsidize it. Vegas and Phoenix are going to run out of water in the next decade, and they want the government to build a trillion dollar aquaduct to steal water from the Great Lakes. Seriously, move to where the fucking water is.

This doesn't mean that I'm not sympathetic on an individual basis with what these people are going through. I feel for them, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't question the sanity of building giant sprawling cities in the middle of the desert with no long term planning for their water supplies.

The NYT Sunday magazine had a great feature article about the west's water problems last week. While it didn't address the surge in fires directly, it did talk about the larger problem that it's simply fundamentally questionable whether that region can sustain its current population given forecasted water supplies.
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The areas on fire are COASTAL CALIFORNIA. I am baffled as to why any information about Vegas and Phoenix is at all applicable here.
 
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OCBuckWife;969902; said:
The areas on fire are COASTAL CALIFORNIA. I am baffled as to why any information about Vegas and Phoenix is at all applicable here.
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It's not a desert to the extreme of Vegas and Phoenix, but the fire problem there can be traced to the same underlying problems. Coastal California is extremely arid with no natural water supplies to sustain its population. Combine that with dry forestland and massive urban sprawl, and you have what we're witnessing on television.

Look, I feel for the people that are losing their homes. It's not as though I'm standing in their driveway screaming, "move to where the water is" at them. In a thread about the fires, I think it's perfectly acceptable to discuss some of the systemic reasons for this problem as well as why the rest of America should year after year pay billions of dollars to deal with these fires. If this thread was simply meant to be a giant Hallmark card to those being burned out of their homes, then I apologize for injecting a little unemotional content into it.
 
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ORD_Buckeye;969910; said:
It's not a desert to the extreme of Vegas and Phoenix, but the fire problem there can be traced to the same underlying problems. Coastal California is extremely arid with no natural water supplies to sustain its population. Combine that with dry forestland and massive urban sprawl, and you have what we're witnessing on television.
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Ok, how far back do you go when you say water is the underlying reason for this? I mean to say that water has been an issue in this, and other areas, since the days of the indians living in pueblos. Unfortunately, our livable land is a very small area and urban growth sprawl is a consequence. But humanity has been "terraforming" for centuries and living in those areas where "the water is" only increases the population, thus sprawl, in those areas until you eventually get to a point where water is an issue there as well. If we lived only in those places that are naturally perfect, a large portion of this country would never have been populated!

We do have natural water supplies. We have water desalination plants, we have rivers, lakes and wells. We don't have enough to sustain, I will give you that, we do import a lot, but we aren't the only state to do that.

Colorado, for example, gains 80% of its water from snow but in times of low snowfall, they experience water shortages much like we do.

**ADDED** California had lots of natural water resources at one time, by the way. It's the absolute mis-management of those resources that leads us to where we are now, not the lack of them originally. **ADDED**

Look, I feel for the people that are losing their homes. It's not as though I'm standing in their driveway screaming, "move to where the water is" at them. In a thread about the fires, I think it's perfectly acceptable to discuss some of the systemic reasons for this problem as well as why the rest of America should year after year pay billions of dollars to deal with these fires. If this thread was simply meant to be a giant Hallmark card to those being burned out of their homes, then I apologize for injecting a little unemotional content into it.
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It wasn't meant to be a hallmark thread, no. I started it to inform others of the situation and to spark conversation, of course. But I object, primarily, to your pat answer of "move to where the water is" as it is too simplistic.

The point of "the rest of America" paying billions year after year for fires is a bit moot as well, since the rest of America pays for hurricane relief, sub prime loan relief, farmer subsidies, etc etc etc, ad infinitum. Every state has something that the "rest of America" is paying to help with.
 
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scooter1369;969870; said:
Just keep the fire away from the "Tits of the world" on the beach south of San Clemente
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Edison's private fire department, employed to protect the San Onofre Nuclear Generator Station, has joined the fight against fires on Camp Pendleton, company spokesman Gil Alexander said. Employees on the inland portion of the SONGS facility north of the I-5 have been relocated to the generator side as a precautionary measure. - 9:30 a.m.
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I had no idea CalEdison HAD a private fire department!
 
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OCBuckWife;969926; said:
The point of "the rest of America" paying billions year after year for fires is a bit moot as well, since the rest of America pays for hurricane relief, sub prime loan relief, farmer subsidies, etc etc etc, ad infinitum. Every state has something that the "rest of America" is paying to help with.
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Yes, the country as a whole should attempt to equalize risk and cost rather than localize it--up to a point. When the municipalities continue to pursue the same greedy short-sighted policies despite all logic telling them to stop then those billions no longer become a proper use of federal funds but become a crutch. At what point does the rest of America say enough is enough! Reign in the sprawl or learn to pay for the consequences yourselves. Right now, you can build a subdivision on the outskirts of Vegas with absolutely zero water rights--just tap into the metropolitan water mains and you're good to go. That is absolutely insane. Now I'm aware that California's development policies are somewhat stricter, but I feel that they need to be not only stricter still but also more proactive in dealing with what by all accounts is only going to be a worsening problem, rather than go ahead blindly as ever in the belief that some magic aquaduct from Lake Michigan or the Columbia River will be built to bail you out in twenty years.

Now reigning in sprawl to be somewhat in accordance with projected water supplies is not going to stop a single fire, but it will lessen the degree to which communities are butted right up against these tinderboxes and lessen our collective responsibility and financial risk. In some sense, I compare these subdivisions being built on the outskirts of SoCal to the Bay Area families moving to the Sierra foothills. They move up to the edge of the mountains, then cry to the state to come out and kill all the mountain lions. You moved to the mountain lions--not the other way around--so quit bitching about them.

BTW, I'm not personally unfamiliar with the whole dynamic. I grew up in Reno, and while the problem is not as acute up North, I have lived through wildfires on the edge of town and Summers of mandated water rationing.
 
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As they get the fire around here under control it's made the sky pretty amazing, the sun is just an orange globe in the sky and it's not like small ash is falling, there's pretty decent sized chunks outside. Someone outside said "It's like it's snowing" which tells me people have no fucking clue what actual snow is like. It's not for several reasons, the main being that it's fucking hot and dry, not to mention it's grey and black stuff falling from the sky, well I guess if it snowed in LA that's probably what it would be like. Apparently the one by us, The Santiago Fire, is about 50% contained, so they are expecting to have it out by tomorrow. Always a good sign.
 
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ORD_Buckeye;969987; said:
Yes, the country as a whole should attempt to equalize risk and cost rather than localize it--up to a point. When the municipalities continue to pursue the same greedy short-sighted policies despite all logic telling them to stop then those billions no longer become a proper use of federal funds but become a crutch. At what point does the rest of America say enough is enough! Reign in the sprawl or learn to pay for the consequences yourselves. Right now, you can build a subdivision on the outskirts of Vegas with absolutely zero water rights--just tap into the metropolitan water mains and you're good to go. That is absolutely insane. Now I'm aware that California's development policies are somewhat stricter, but I feel that they need to be not only stricter still but also more proactive in dealing with what by all accounts is only going to be a worsening problem, rather than go ahead blindly as ever in the belief that some magic aquaduct from Lake Michigan or the Columbia River will be built to bail you out in twenty years.

Now reigning in sprawl to be somewhat in accordance with projected water supplies is not going to stop a single fire, but it will lessen the degree to which communities are butted right up against these tinderboxes and lessen our collective responsibility and financial risk. In some sense, I compare these subdivisions being built on the outskirts of SoCal to the Bay Area families moving to the Sierra foothills. They move up to the edge of the mountains, then cry to the state to come out and kill all the mountain lions. You moved to the mountain lions--not the other way around--so quit bitching about them.

BTW, I'm not personally unfamiliar with the whole dynamic. I grew up in Reno, and while the problem is not as acute up North, I have lived through wildfires on the edge of town and Summers of mandated water rationing.
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I agree with all these points. I do feel that an "enough is enough" point is still far, far in the future and it will still not be as harsh as it probably needs to be.

If I am understanding better, however, when you exhibit your anger and a sort of "leave em to their own" attitude you are specifically referring to those people who build and live in outlying "sprawl" not the urban areas? Because if that's the case, then I am entirely and completely in agreement with you.

It is incredibly stupid to me that people build houses in nearly inaccessible areas, fight with the nearest cities for amenities that service only a limited few, and then get upset and angry when they are somehow not serviced as well as those who live in established city zones. They "landscape" natural areas into unnatural garden zones and then complain about the local wildlife eating their pets. To my dismay, my aunt and uncle live in this class of development.
 
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To SoCal

We see what's happening to your neighborhoods....I was lucky enough to spend part of my life in places like La Jolla, Carlsbad and Del Mar. I could never imagine such places turning into ashes. Here's to wishing you all the best and hope that these fires will end soon.
 
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buckeyefool;968610; said:
And of course the story really has nothing to do with what the class was really just talking about. And you can tell even the Prof. is thinking what the hell is this person talking about.
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I do think that all of the time...rarely in my classes however, usually reading posts here.
 
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OCBucksFan;971075; said:
California Fire (24 pics) (//STATiC)
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The pics of the firemen are great.

This one is probably my favorite. It may not look like much, just a burnt house, with a couple items in the foreground that somehow did not burn but its more.
Fighting off fire, digging trenches, trying to save homes, snatching sleep when they can, and sometimes fighting to save themselves, firefighters still have moments where they can snatch a precious item from a home about to be destroyed.
They don't have to, its not part of their job, but they know all about the destruction of lives that comes with the destruction of a houseful of things and sometimes, they help, just a little bit, if they can, in between all the other things they are doing.
califo22f3815e3ed5.jpg
I watched a news show last night and saw, live, when one man went home for the first time to his destroyed home, only to find, wrapped in blankets on the street in front of his ash-covered lot, all of the framed pictures of his family that had once hung on the front wall of his house. Sappy, I know, but it made a big difference to this man and his wife, if only to give them a piece of joy in the midst of such sorrow. And the fireman who did that, he didn't have to.......
 
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AT&T demands CA wildfire victims return their satellite dish

When this Azola couple got back from their honeymoon, they had about an hour of matrimonial bliss before being forced to flee as their house was engulfed in flames. So you can understand they had some things on their mind other than the status of their AT&T | Dish receiver as they ran for their lives. When they called to cancel service, the customer service rep asked if they had "remembered to pick up the receiver" as they left the house...
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Videos: AT&T Asks CA Wildfire Victims If They Remembered To Pick Up Satellite Receiver As They Fled Their Burning House
 
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