Should Michigan get a shot at the National Championship game?

[WaitingforKickoff]

Well, the ultimate goal is money, but we'll set that argument aside. Suppose Notre Dame makes it to the BCS NC game and wins. That makes them superior to OSU; OSU superior to Michigan; Michigan superior to...Notre Dame?

Suppose USC loses to Notre Dame, Arkansas loses to LSU, and Florida loses to either FSU or Arkansas. Then what? Who goes? Notre Dame? Why does "superior team decide on the field" count in OSU vs. Michigan, but not Michigan vs. Notre Dame?

Haha. This is sounding more and more like a discussion over the transitive property of economic theories. "If consumer strictly prefers good A over good B, good B over good C, he must strictly prefer good A over good C....."

The fact of the matter is, the head to head matchup between Michigan and Notre Dame has been counted on the basis that ND is out of contention for a spot in the NC game.

I disagree that this fundamental tenet is determinative. Conference Championship games suggests it does not exist. We see rematches there all the time. I don't see any fundamental tent swooping in and saving the day.

Determining conference champions and national champions are completely different animals. The NY Yankees can completely sweep the Detroit Tigers in the 162 game regular season and lose in the first round of the playoffs. That's the system. However, if you deny the national league a spot in the world series based on the assertion that American League teams are superior, an assertion that has not been proven or supported on the field, it would not only be a travesty but also a corruption of the fundamental tenet of the game.

It says simply that the rest of the country doesn't have the two best teams. So you deny that it is possible for one conference to have the two best teams in the country?

Again, your assertion is not supported with results on the field. Michigan lost to Ohio State. That's a fact. What is not known is whether USC/Florida/WV/Arkansas/UL can knock off Ohio State. Michigan has been the opportunity to prove it on the field. There should be no reason that we deny the same courtesy to someone else.

What team are we talking about? Florida or SC? Did they not get the courtesy of a chance to beat Auburn and Oregon State?

Florida's loss to Auburn proved that Auburn was the better team on the field that day. SC's loss to Oregan St. proved that Oregon state was the better team on the field that day. Neither of these two losses prove that Ohio State could beat these two teams. On the other hand, Ohio State has beaten Michigan.

 

[methomps]

Haha. This is sounding more and more like a discussion over the transitive property of economic theories. "If consumer strictly prefers good A over good B, good B over good C, he must strictly prefer good A over good C....."

The fact of the matter is, the head to head matchup between Michigan and Notre Dame has been counted on the basis that ND is out of contention for a spot in the NC game.

So then who goes to the NC game if Notre Dame beats USC, LSU beats Arkansas, USF beats West Virginia, and Arkansas/FSU beat Florida? Basically, what if the only one-loss teams left are Michigan, ND, and Wisconsin. Who goes?

Determining conference champions and national champions are completely different animals. The NY Yankees can completely sweep the Detroit Tigers in the 162 game regular season and lose in the first round of the playoffs. That's the system. However, if you deny the national league a spot in the world series based on the assertion that American League teams are superior, an assertion that has not been proven or supported on the field, it would not only be a travesty but also a corruption of the fundamental tenet of the game.

Amazing that a "fundamental tenet of the game" has such limited application (only applies to NCG, not CCG).

Again, your assertion is not supported with results on the field. Michigan lost to Ohio State. That's a fact. What is not known is whether USC/Florida/WV/Arkansas/UL can knock off Ohio State. Michigan has been the opportunity to prove it on the field. There should be no reason that we deny the same courtesy to someone else.

It isn't an assertion. It's a question. Are you saying that there is no possibility that the two best teams in the nation can come from the same conference? How does OSU beating Michigan lead to the conclusion that one of the USC/Florida/WV/Arkie/UL group must be better than Michigan? Michigan can lose to OSU and still be the #2 team in the country

Florida's loss to Auburn proved that Auburn was the better team on the field that day. SC's loss to Oregan St. proved that Oregon state was the better team on the field that day. Neither of these two losses prove that Ohio State could beat these two teams. On the other hand, Ohio State has beaten Michigan.

You seem to alternate between "beating a team on the field proves superiority" and "beating a team on the field proves you are the better team that day" as convenience dictates for your argument.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

So then who goes to the NC game if Notre Dame beats USC, LSU beats Arkansas, USF beats West Virginia, and Arkansas/FSU beat Florida? Basically, what if the only one-loss teams left are Michigan, ND, and Wisconsin. Who goes?

Not ND. As much as you can argue about how much they've gotten better over the course of season, especially if they knock off SC, they won't get in due to the result of their head to head matchup vs. Michigan.

Amazing that a "fundamental tenet of the game" has such limited application (only applies to NCG, not CCG).

Well I was under the impression that we are limiting our debate to the national championship. As far as the conference championship? OSU is Big Ten champ.

It isn't an assertion. It's a question. Are you saying that there is no possibility that the two best teams in the nation can come from the same conference?

We can talk about hypotheticals all day. However, that is the job more appropriate for players of the EAsports game GameDay. The fact of the matter is that nothing on the field supports the notion that the best two teams in the nation belong to the Big Ten. It is not a conclusion, it is simply an observation made by the lack of evidence to support the original assertion.

How does OSU beating Michigan lead to the conclusion that one of the USC/Florida/WV/Arkie/UL group must be better than Michigan? Michigan can lose to OSU and still be the #2 team in the country

How does Michigan losing to OSU lead to the conclusion that they must be better than the USC/Florida/WV/Arkie/UL? Michigan has lost to Ohio State on the field and thus can only be considered at best the #2 team in the nation. We don't know how good USC/Florida/WV/Arkie/UL are because they haven't had a chance to settle it on the field yet. Are they deserving of #1? #2? #3? Let's find out the old-fashion way: play the game on the field.

 

[methomps]

Not ND. As much as you can argue about how much they've gotten better over the course of season, especially if they knock off SC, they won't get in due to the result of their head to head matchup vs. Michigan.

So then who?

We can talk about hypotheticals all day. However, that is the job more appropriate for players of the EAsports game GameDay. The fact of the matter is that nothing on the field supports the notion that the best two teams in the nation belong to the Big Ten. It is not a conclusion, it is simply an observation made by the lack of evidence to support the original assertion.

So are you just not going to answer the question?

How does Michigan losing to OSU lead to the conclusion that they must be better than the USC/Florida/WV/Arkie/UL? Michigan has lost to Ohio State on the field and thus can only be considered at best the #2 team in the nation. We don't know how good USC/Florida/WV/Arkie/UL are because they haven't had a chance to settle it on the field yet. Are they deserving of #1? #2? #3? Let's find out the old-fashion way: play the game on the field.

When have I said anything different?

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

So then who?

Any one loss team other than Michigan. Give me SC. Give me Florida. Give me Arkansas. Bring on WV. Maybe even Louisville. Who do you think should play OSU?

So are you just not going to answer the question?

The question is irrelevant because we haven't seen Michigan play Florida. We haven't seen Michigan play Arkansas. We haven't seen Michigan play WV. We haven't seen Michigan play USC. We haven't seen Michigan play WV. We haven't seen Michigan play Louisville. We haven't seen Ohio State play Florida. We haven't seen Ohio State play Arkansas. We haven't seen Ohio State play SC. We haven't seen Ohio State play WV. We haven't seen Ohio State play Louisville. We have seen Ohio State play Michigan.

Do I think Michigan and Ohio State are the number one and number two teams in the nation? I think Ohio State is number one. I don't think Michigan is number two. Michigan played Ohio State admirably...so did Penn State, and so did Illinois. Michigan beat ND...Michigan also beat Wisconsin, but who has Wisconsin beat? Michigan survived a scare at home against Ball State. If you use the style point argument against teams like Florida, Michigan isn't exactly the most stylist team out there. Michigan's claim to fame going into the Ohio State game was there herald defense. That defense has been exposed for 500 yards of offense. They can't hang their hat on that anymore.

When have I said anything different?

If you think Michigan is at best the second team in the nation because of their loss to Ohio State, why do you insist on denying other teams the chance to prove that they are number one on the field? If Michigan is no better than number two, why should they be given another chance to take the #1 slot?

 

[808 Buck]

This is simple. No. They came, they played, they lost. Don't want to hear about where the game was played and how close it was. You either produce when it counts or you go home. Of course, in this case, you go to Pasadena.

 

[methomps]

Any one loss team other than Michigan. Give me SC. Give me Florida. Give me Arkansas. Bring on WV. Maybe even Louisville. Who do you think should play OSU?

The question was "what if Florida, Arkansas, WV, and Louisville all lose?" That leaves the only one-loss teams to be Michigan, ND, and Wisconsin.

The question is irrelevant because we haven't seen Michigan play Florida. We haven't seen Michigan play Arkansas. We haven't seen Michigan play WV. We haven't seen Michigan play USC. We haven't seen Michigan play WV. We haven't seen Michigan play Louisville. We haven't seen Ohio State play Florida. We haven't seen Ohio State play Arkansas. We haven't seen Ohio State play SC. We haven't seen Ohio State play WV. We haven't seen Ohio State play Louisville. We have seen Ohio State play Michigan.

How can the question not be relevant? Who is #2 is the most relevant quesiton left in this regular season.

Do I think Michigan and Ohio State are the number one and number two teams in the nation? I think Ohio State is number one. I don't think Michigan is number two. Michigan played Ohio State admirably...so did Penn State, and so did Illinois. Michigan beat ND...Michigan also beat Wisconsin, but who has Wisconsin beat? Michigan survived a scare at home against Ball State. If you use the style point argument against teams like Florida, Michigan isn't exactly the most stylist team out there. Michigan's claim to fame going into the Ohio State game was there herald defense. That defense has been exposed for 500 yards of offense. They can't hang their hat on that anymore.

I'm just saying that Michigan shouldn't be precluded from the discussion. If they are the #2 team in the country, they deserve to go to the BCS NC game.

If you think Michigan is at best the second team in the nation because of their loss to Ohio State, why do you insist on denying other teams the chance to prove that they are number one on the field? If Michigan is no better than number two, why should they be given another chance to take the #1 slot?

Every team has had its chance. Why should losing to the #1 team be fatal, but losing to a lesser team not be?

 

[Buck4life1972]

The Bucks won--bring on whoever else is worthy!

I have read all this technical, intense dribble about a possible re-match and I agree with Buck808--it was put up or shut up and they Michigan failed to hit the mark! Now, historically that means that the Pac-Ten, The SEC, The ACC or The Big East get a chance to send their best to prove themselves. Perhaps you can tell me, if there ever was such a "same-conference" matchup before we relied on the BCS computer / committee to decide who was worthy to contend for the National Championship. The BCS has many flaws and always seems to create drama/controversy each and every year--just ask Auburn who got shafted a few years ago, due to a technicality. So putting all that hoopla aside--wouldn't you rather see some variety? Wouldn't you rather see Ohio State face USC, Florida,Louisville, or WV? I know I would simply because--Michigan--been there done that. And if those other worthy teams don't get a shot, they forever will think that they could've beat Ohio State--wondering "what if?" I believe that to be considered the best, you have to beat the best that "other" conferences have to offer--are we so arrogant as to assume that even without playing these teams that the Big Ten is better than them?

 

[Adam Locked]

Depends if Arkansas, Florida, or USC loses. Notre Dame has no chance to get in ahead of Michigan...

 

[Buck4life1972]

The Bucks won--bring on whoever else is worthy!

:osu: I have read all this technical, intense dribble about a possible re-match and I agree with Buck808--it was put up or shut up and they Michigan failed to hit the mark! Now, historically that means that the Pac-Ten, The SEC, The ACC or The Big East get a chance to send their best to prove themselves. Perhaps you can tell me, if there ever was such a "same-conference" matchup before we relied on the BCS computer / committee to decide who was worthy to contend for the National Championship. The BCS has many flaws and always seems to create drama/controversy each and every year--just ask Auburn who got shafted a few years ago, due to a technicality. So putting all that hoopla aside--wouldn't you rather see some variety? Wouldn't you rather see Ohio State face USC, Florida,Louisville, or WV? I know I would simply because--Michigan--been there done that. And if those other worthy teams don't get a shot, they forever will think that they could've beat Ohio State--wondering "what if?" I believe that to be considered the best, you have to beat the best that "other" conferences have to offer--are we so arrogant as to assume that even without playing these teams that the Big Ten is better than them?

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

The question was "what if Florida, Arkansas, WV, and Louisville all lose?" That leaves the only one-loss teams to be Michigan, ND, and Wisconsin.

If Florida, Arkansas, SC, WV, and Louisville all lose, then let Michigan get that rematch. I got no problems with our team getting two pair of gold pants in one season.

 

[OhioState49]

No, they had their chance to beat us, and they didn't. There is no reason why they should get another shot even if people think they they are 2nd best in the nation. It doesn't matter because they lost fair and square. It wouldn't be fair to USC or Florida if they win. Let us play a new team for the National Championship.

 

[WolverineTX]

Basically, what if the only one-loss teams left are Michigan, ND, and Wisconsin. Who goes?

Wisconsin has already accepted an invitation to the Capital One, so they're not part of the equation.

In the unlikely event that USC, Florida, and Arkansas each drop a game, I think we'll see the rematch come to fruition. I don't think Louisville or West Virginia would be able to close the gap in the final BCS standings.

If it ends up that way, I'll grudgingly accept it. It won't feel right though, since the opportunity would arrive based not upon the merits of our victories, but others' losses.

(FWIW, I'd like to see a WV-Michigan Rose Bowl. We've only met once, way back in 1904.)

 

[methomps]

If Florida, Arkansas, SC, WV, and Louisville all lose, then let Michigan get that rematch. I got no problems with our team getting two pair of gold pants in one season.

Well, there you go.

No, they had their chance to beat us, and they didn't. There is no reason why they should get another shot even if people think they they are 2nd best in the nation. It doesn't matter because they lost fair and square. It wouldn't be fair to USC or Florida if they win. Let us play a new team for the National Championship.

That doesn't make any sense. If Michigan is the #2 team in the country, then that means USC and Florida are not. So how is it unfair to them that they are left out?

 

[CCI]

This is simple. No. They came, they played, they lost. Don't want to hear about where the game was played and how close it was. You either produce when it counts or you go home. Of course, in this case, you go to Pasadena.

Amen to that

W L Tie

I dont see in any standings or polls should of, could of, if's