Shoelace and the Heisman - where's Denard finish?

[BB73]

Where does Denard Robinson finish in 2010's Heisman Trophy balloting?

This is my brain fart - so the odds aren't from Vegas.

 

[Dryden]

I think Denard finishes 2010 in traction at Grant Hospital after our D Line snaps him in half.

 

[NFBuck]

You're missing (or, perhaps more accurately, choosing to ignore) the point--DR fattened up on the dregs of NCAA defenses; against MSU, he was exposed. Show me that list after 5 games (you know, before he faced any defenses this year), and I'll bet he was a lot higher than #12. As a corollary, show me that list in a month, and I'll bet he's nowhere near #12.

You may be right, but as I look at the list I see others whose stats are similarly padded by playing "against the dregs of NCAA defenses." namely:

2 Cameron Newton, QB AUB 108 70 64.8 1138 10.5 94 12 5 7 180.7
3 Ricky Stanzi, QB IOWA 121 82 67.8 1226 10.1 66 10 2 10 176.8
4 Dan Persa, QB NW 177 138 78.0 1663 9.4 50 10 2 16 173.3
5 Stephen Garcia, QB SCAR 101 73 72.3 944 9.3 69 8 3 10 171.0
6 Terrelle Pryor, QB OSU 153 104 68.0 1349 8.8 65 15 3 11 170.5
7 Ryan Mallett, QB ARK 176 122 69.3 1748 9.9 85 13 6 9 170.3
8 Greg McElroy, QB ALA 137 99 72.3 1298 9.5 51 9 3 16 169.1
9 Kirk Cousins, QB MSU 145 99 68.3 1416 9.8 55 10 4 11 167.6
10 Andrew Luck, QB STAN 172 113 65.7 1538 8.9 81 16 4 3 166.9
RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RAT
11 Brandon Weeden, QB OKST 190 131 68.9 1610 8.5 81 18 6 5 165.1

At this point in time I see only three names of QBs who have played against 2 or more tough teams; Garcia, Mallett, and Luck. Sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.

That's just another deflection. Nobody is arguing that anybody else is dominating against a stellar slate of opponents, only that denard's numbers were inflated against poor competition and he'll come back to earth once he faces better defenses.

 

[NFBuck]

a) stop worrying about the Heisman -- I haven't brought it up.

b) I think Mallett is a terrific QB and his stats, right there on the same listing, back that up.

c) Please show me how UConn, UMass, Notre Dame, Michigan State and Indiana differ significantly from the defenses others on that list faced.

Now you're changing the argument. Nobody is remotely comparing denard to anybody else. Again, the entire argument is that his numbers will not be as "shiny" against better competition.

 

[jwinslow]

At this point in time I see only three names of QBs who have played against 2 or more tough teams; Garcia, Mallett, and Luck. Sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.

Newton played #22 Miss St, #29 SCar, #47 Clem.
McElroy played #13 Arkansas, #24 Penn St, #37 Florida, #29 SCar.

Meaning half of that top-10 did exactly the opposite of what you said, at least going by the only stats we have now (obviously PSU might drop a bit, but there are plenty of others to compensate).

 

[cincibuck]

Now you're changing the argument. Nobody is remotely comparing denard to anybody else. Again, the entire argument is that his numbers will not be as "shiny" against better competition.

OK:
a) Never, not once, have I ever suggested that Denard is even a potential Heisman candidate. I'm not from ESPN or any other media outlet.

b) Never have I suggested that his numbers will not fluctuate as the season moves into conference play.

c) What I have said is that in the area of the opening half of the season the kid has been outstanding. I believe that "outstanding" is bourne out by his place in the rankings of all QBs.

d) I also stated that who he has played against is very similar to the rest of the names on that top 40 list. Very few top tier schools play more than three or four games in any given year in which they are faced by an opponent of similar talent and resources. Maybe the difference lies in the fact that he's had the opportunity to pad his numbers because Michigan can't put 24 points on the board and then turn the game over to the defense and the running backs.

e) Further, he's accomplished this while playing for a team with a terrible defense. He seldom gets the ball in the red zone courtesy of a turn over.

f) Can a QB of his size play his/RRs style of offense for an entire season? Yet to be determined. Pat White couldn't. I'm not sure Terrell could either. Carrying the ball, even against "the dregs of NCAA defenses," means getting hit -- often and hard.

 

[jwinslow]

b) Never have I suggested that his numbers will not fluctuate as the season moves into conference play.

Actually, that's precisely what you did in this post, which I already raised earlier and you side-stepped it

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...v-un-64-5-3-30-et-abc-espn-2.html#post1788116

You scoffed at the notion that:

he hadn't faced a good defense in ND (even later bringing up their B10 candidacy as a rationale)
that MSU would change things for his play

c) What I have said is that in the area of the opening half of the season the kid has been outstanding. I believe that "outstanding" is bourne out by his place in the rankings of all QBs.

Actually, you called his performance good, and when challenged on that point, you resorted to what he did in the other games, hence the frequent posts about you changing your argument.

f) Can a QB of his size play his/RRs style of offense for an entire season? Yet to be determined. Pat White couldn't. I'm not sure Terrell could either. Carrying the ball, even against "the dregs of NCAA defenses," means getting hit -- often and hard.

And there's the 'dregs' thing again, despite the above post.

 

[Deety]

Wow, looks like this argument got a bit more detailed than originally intended. Shall I order the cages? Gotta love a good cage fight. :p

 

[cincibuck]

Actually, that's precisely what you did in this post, which I already raised earlier and you side-stepped it

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...v-un-64-5-3-30-et-abc-espn-2.html#post1788116

You scoffed at the notion that:

he hadn't faced a good defense in ND (even later bringing up their B10 candidacy as a rationale)
that MSU would change things for his play
Actually, you called his performance good, and when challenged on that point, you resorted to what he did in the other games, hence the frequent posts about you changing your argument.
And there's the 'dregs' thing again, despite the above post.

Look at the quote YOU cited. Do you even see the word Heisman?

Actually, that's precisely what you did in this post, which I already raised earlier and you side-stepped it

I don't mind arguing with you, in fact I enjoy it, but let's stick to what I said, not what you thought I said.

 

[jwinslow]

Look at the quote YOU cited. Do you even see the word Heisman?

No, I don't see the word Heisman being discussed by me in either of those rebuttals, yet you're using it as yet another redirection.

Many: "Denard will struggle against a REAL defense"
Cinci: scoffing at that notion, as well as the criticism of ND and others as bad defenses (citing the B10 invitation)

Denard struggles against MSU (a solid not great defense)

Many: "That's what we meant when we said he'd struggle"
Cinci: "Actually he had a good day"
Me: "I don't think that was a good performance, and here's why - comparison to Mallett's weak outing vs Bama"
Cinci: "But he had a really great season overall"

Can you see how that is frustrating?

I only mentioned the heisman when making a comparison to when Mallett didn't have a "good" day despite very similar numbers to Denard's MSU performance, which you labeled as good.

I don't mind arguing with you, in fact I enjoy it, but let's stick to what I said, not what you thought I said.

I've tried that, and you keep changing the subject.

 

[jwinslow]

Wow, looks like this argument got a bit more detailed than originally intended. Shall I order the cages? Gotta love a good cage fight. :p

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMyVWMJvwjk"]YouTube - TubeChop Seinfeld George Costanza The Truth 00 07[/ame]

 

[Tonyank]

you guys are arguing over scUM player....GTFO

No way he's in the top 10......

 

[Gatorubet]

No way he's in the top 10......

Wow. Them's some thick homer glasses Tony.

 

[Tonyank]

Wow. Them's some thick homer glasses Tony.

Really ??? Cause i think we saw the "REAL" Drob this sat. Nothing fancy and making mistakes. And from her on out, the D's stay semi-tuff. Plus scUMs D is getting worse putting more pressure on Drob. No homer at all, I myself was amazed in the first 5 games, and in my eyes it was his to lose. But i knew they havent played anyone. When was the last time a hiesman winners team went 7-5 ???

 

[3074326]

I'd be surprised if he weren't in the top 10, assuming he stays healthy. Which is a lot to assume.