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Religions of Abraham Backwards?

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buckeyegrad;1690775; said:
I'm not sure how one can respond to such a claim of deception. It seems as though regardless of what response I would give, it could easily be countered by "well, that's how you've been deceived".

Typically, the burden of proof is on the one claiming deception is occurring. A simple hypothesis that is could be occurring or the historical claims of individuals like the gnostics simply isn't enough "proof" for me to consider such a possibility when weighed against my experiences and the experiences of others with the God of Abraham.
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Understood. I would think the KISS method for giving "proof" would be best here..

Matthew 7:16-20, ?You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.?

How are the fruits of the Christians? Muslims? Jews?

All seem like pretty [censored]ty fruits, IMHO. NOT SPEAKING ABOUT INDVIDUALS but as the institutions as a whole, and at the top.

I mean, look at the world events - all the wars, genocide, etc. - it seems to violate common sense.

I, admittatly, have much more experience and knoweldge of the Christian faith and it's history over the other two I bring into question.

Gatorubet;1690807; said:
That answer is the answer that some Gnostics came up with. They could not reconcile a God who is All Powerful with that vengeful, mistake-ridden being of the Garden and Flood. Gnostics blame the world?s problems and failings on that imperfect creator. They think that God, a "Demiurgos", or "half maker", is a corrupted being that came from one of the near God entities - but they do (did?) believe that a true, pure, Supreme, Ultimate and Transcendent God exits - just that he is not the Old Testament Cat.

No wonder the early Christian Church put the Ban Hammer on them. :biggrin:
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The same "early Christian Church" that combined pagan beliefs with Jesus' teachings? It's rhetorical..

I find it odd, that the Vicar of Christ and "the church," could be as corrupt as it is - today and throughout history - and still be considered "holy." I mean, it's nuts.

It's not a undiscovered fact that a good amount of the Cathlioc rituals are pagan - and (with the exception of the Jehova's [i would still argue otherwise]) that all modern christian faiths broke off of the Cathlioc church.

I would argue that Christians who practice communion are partaking in a pagan ritual - unknowingly of course. Back to the whole "wool over the eyes" thing.

Thoughts?
 
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t_BuckeyeScott;1690844; said:
Cherry picking, I know, but do you deny the whole upper room, last supper?
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Damn you and your cherry picking :wink2:

Without going off on a tangent - but I do think it's important for me to point this out - I don't deny the "last supper" as it was passover, but I do deny Jesus being one in the same as G-d.

My short answer: communion is not unique to the Christian faith and I believe it's roots are pagan.
 
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Bleed S & G said:
Damn you and your cherry picking :wink2:

Without going off on a tangent - but I do think it's important for me to point this out - I don't deny the "last supper" as it was passover, but I do deny Jesus being one in the same as G-d.

My short answer: communion is not unique to the Christian faith and I believe it's roots are pagan.
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I don't think there is need to cherry pick practices like that. As a Christian I do believe Communion is important, but its not why I believe what I believe. Because I believe what I believe I partake in Communion as Jesus commanded. It matters not to me that you think it was born of pagan religion.

I think a true believer's faith is centered on Jesus. It is Him and Him alone that shapes my other beliefs, or I at least try to make it that way. The only way you could possibly change my core beliefs is to shake my foundation of what I believe happened circa 2000 years ago in Galilee and Jerusalem and most importantly Golgatha and tomb not far away.

We can talk about opinions on whether God would really have done it one way or another, but that won't go far because I'm persuaded by what Jesus said and did. I can't change my mind on the ways God operates until I change my mind on Jesus, but that's just not going to happen. Jesus is as real to me as He was to the disciples 2000 years ago. I still have a choice to follow Him, but I can't deny Him, and thus my choice is made easy. How can I not choose to follow my Maker and Savior?
 
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t_BuckeyeScott;1690860; said:
I don't think there is need to cherry pick practices like that. As a Christian I do believe Communion is important, but its not why I believe what I believe. Because I believe what I believe I partake in Communion as Jesus commanded. It matters not to me that you think it was born of pagan religion.

I think a true believer's faith is centered on Jesus. It is Him and Him alone that shapes my other beliefs, or I at least try to make it that way. The only way you could possibly change my core beliefs is to shake my foundation of what I believe happened circa 2000 years ago in Galilee and Jerusalem and most importantly Golgatha and tomb not far away.

We can talk about opinions on whether God would really have done it one way or another, but that won't go far because I'm persuaded by what Jesus said and did. I can't change my mind on the ways God operates until I change my mind on Jesus, but that's just not going to happen. Jesus is as real to me as He was to the disciples 2000 years ago. I still have a choice to follow Him, but I can't deny Him, and thus my choice is made easy. How can I not choose to follow my Maker and Savior?
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I thought by cherry-picking you meant you pulled one detail out of my posts, not how you post quoted above explains.

Jesus, and his life, is the entire basis for my argument/theory/post. I guess what I'm saying is, Jesus is the complete opposite of god in the bible. So, if Jesus is love - what is the god of the bible?

See what I'm getting at?

I don't want this to go to far off topic and onto the questions of Jesus being G-d or communion. That isn't the point of this thread.. but I'm up for the debate in a diffrent thread.
 
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Bleed S & G said:
I thought by cherry-picking you meant you pulled one detail out of my posts, not how you post quoted above explains.

Jesus, and his life, is the entire basis for my argument/theory/post. I guess what I'm saying is, Jesus is the complete opposite of god in the bible. So, if Jesus is love - what is the god of the bible?

See what I'm getting at?

I don't want this to go to far off topic and onto the questions of Jesus being G-d or communion. That isn't the point of this thread.. but I'm up for the debate in a diffrent thread.
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No, I certainly did cherry pick, but only to get back to the real topic. I think your statement about Communion being a pagan practice is not germane to the discussion at hand. I guess I'm just saying that cerain things get in the way of the real discussion.

On to the real discussion
But see, I start with Jesus's statement found in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" and others like it. To me its clear that Jesus identifies himself the God of the Old Testament. If that's my starting point then its easier for me to see the similarities.
 
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How are the fruits of the Christians? Muslims? Jews?

All seem like pretty [censored]ty fruits, IMHO. NOT SPEAKING ABOUT INDVIDUALS but as the institutions as a whole, and at the top.
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The entire context is crucial when looking at scripture, in this case He is speaking about false prophets and hypocrites. He readily acknowledges there will be many who will not only attempt to deceive others but will have fully deceived themselves into believing they are followers when they are not.

That doesn't change the existence of true followers, it just separates the two groups. Becoming a Christian does not mean your actions will never involve sin again (David received God's praise more than almost any other and look what he did down the road), it is about what you serve & devote your life to doing. No longer are you living for yourself and your selfish sinful nature (though that battle will never end until death), but you give up yourself to live for Him.
Jesus, and his life, is the entire basis for my argument/theory/post. I guess what I'm saying is, Jesus is the complete opposite of god in the bible. So, if Jesus is love - what is the god of the bible?
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Again you're confusing love with gentle love. His gentle empathy is but one part of God's love.

There are a boatload of OT & NT scriptures you have to overlook in order to dismiss Jesus as the Messiah proclaimed in the OT and thus the God found in those scriptures.
 
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t_BuckeyeScott;1690871; said:
On to the real discussion
But see, I start with Jesus's statement found in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" and others like it. To me its clear that Jesus identifies himself the God of the Old Testament. If that's my starting point then its easier for me to see the similarities.
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While it is your faith to believe that as a true statement, if I understand S&G correctly, what happens if Jesus is essentially the same as David Koresh? (A guy who had his followers believing he was much more than he was)

In other words, you're sorta not debating anything - you're just saying "Well, I believe him" Maybe S&G's question is "Why do you believe him?" Doesn't the "evidence" (if you will, ie perversion of the church) point to the conclusion that whatever Jesus was, he couldn't have been G-d? (I don't mean to step on S&G here, I just wonder if maybe I'm missing something)
 
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if you will, ie perversion of the church
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The diversion from a code of conduct soils the offender, not the ideals they should have followed. Most children are taught to be honest. When they inevitably lie (most of us many times), does that invalidate the teachings?
point to the conclusion that whatever Jesus was, he couldn't have been G-d?
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Why? It's not like they were following his teachings and those were the consequences. The many problems in the church were clearly out of line with G-d's teachings. Their delusions, perversions & justifications of their behavior don't change the obvious disconnect, the fruits of their labor outed them.
 
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jwinslow;1690873; said:
There are a boatload of OT & NT scriptures you have to overlook in order to dismiss Jesus as the Messiah proclaimed in the OT and thus the God found in those scriptures.
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Not to derail this, but there is one big problem with that view far as I can tell. The OT predicts a messiah for the Jews and Jews would not be looking for a god-man because they believe in ONE G-d above all others.

Link

Thus, in my view, whatever those OT scriptures might be talking about, it cannot be about any god-man. Jews simply would not be looking for such an entity, as doing so would be something other than the ONE
 
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jwinslow;1690879; said:
The diversion from a code of conduct soils the offender, not the ideals they should have followed. Most children are taught to be honest. When they inevitably lie (most of us many times), does that invalidate the teachings?
Why? It's not like they were following his teachings and those were the consequences. The many problems in the church were clearly out of line with G-d's teachings. Their delusions, perversions & justifications of their behavior don't change the obvious disconnect, the fruits of their labor outed them.
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I don't know.. I was simply trying to keep what I assume to be the thread's premise in place. The question being, how can you know you're not being deceived? Or, if you will, if G-d was all powerful... or if Jesus' word so compelling, how in the world did these divine creatures allow a perversion in the first instance.

Again, I don't want to put words in S&G's mouth, but that's the way I took it.
 
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