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- Thread starter ArmyVet83
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Jt4prez
All-American
I'm not in favor putting Chapman in the closers role. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I, for the most part, like the way Baker has been using Chapman; bringing him in to various situations to close the door, whether that entails pitching the 8th exclusively, or going 1+ innings to get critical outs. I'm in agreement that if Chapman has an electric 8th, then there is no reason to prohibit him from pitching the 9th, but he should not pitch the 9th exclusively. Chapman is also much less effective pitching back to back days; the closers role would obviously demand this of him.
With that said, Marshall was great last year in the 8th for the Cubs and Ondrusek has been great also, so maybe the above is just me talking... but I dont think so.
With that said, Marshall was great last year in the 8th for the Cubs and Ondrusek has been great also, so maybe the above is just me talking... but I dont think so.
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3 pages of reds fans complaining about anything and everything, so I bust out my handy dandy At Bat app to find............they beat the Yankees without ever trailing the entire game.
sounds about right.
sounds about right.
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BuckeyeNation27;2156826; said:3 pages of reds fans complaining about anything and everything, so I bust out my handy dandy At Bat app to find............they beat the Yankees without ever trailing the entire game.
sounds about right.
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scott91575
Resident hater
So due to Madsen getting hurt Chapman stayed in the bullpen? WTF? Really? Because you lose a guy that will give you 50-60 innings a year you have to pull one of your most talented pitchers out of spot where he might give you 170 innings or so and place him in a spot where he might give you about 50 or 60?
When you lose a bullpen arm you don't use one your (possibly) better starters, especially a young one. You promote all your other bullpen arms then promote someone from AAA, or go get a bullpen guy in a trade.
Having a bullpen is nice, but starting pitching is more important. I really wish Dusty could realize that. Chapman should be starting, plain and simple. The fact they keep messing around with him based on crap that is happening with the team shows how messed up the coaches are. He is not John Schmoltz. He is a really young kid learning to pitch. Put him in the rotation, keep him there, and let some vet fill those other roles.
Once Masset and Bray are back they really need to put Chapman in the rotation. Of course they won't because Dusty really like those 4 or 5 shutout innings out of bullpen each week instead of 1 and sometimes 2 incredible starts a week. He would rather throw away an entire game from the start while salvaging those 1 in 5 or 10 times Chapman would actually make a difference over someone like Bray or Masset.
When you lose a bullpen arm you don't use one your (possibly) better starters, especially a young one. You promote all your other bullpen arms then promote someone from AAA, or go get a bullpen guy in a trade.
Having a bullpen is nice, but starting pitching is more important. I really wish Dusty could realize that. Chapman should be starting, plain and simple. The fact they keep messing around with him based on crap that is happening with the team shows how messed up the coaches are. He is not John Schmoltz. He is a really young kid learning to pitch. Put him in the rotation, keep him there, and let some vet fill those other roles.
Once Masset and Bray are back they really need to put Chapman in the rotation. Of course they won't because Dusty really like those 4 or 5 shutout innings out of bullpen each week instead of 1 and sometimes 2 incredible starts a week. He would rather throw away an entire game from the start while salvaging those 1 in 5 or 10 times Chapman would actually make a difference over someone like Bray or Masset.
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Jt4prez
All-American
I think the real problem was not only losing Madson, but losing Masset and Bray as well. Masset was likely our 8th inning guy going into the season and Bray was our lefty specialist. Chapman fills both those roles. Take into account also that the trades of Boxberger( in the Latos deal) and Travis Wood, who could have potentially been a reliever, left us woefully devoid of any talent at AAA to bring up. We had to trade for Hoover and pick up Simon on the waiver wire just to fill out the rest of the pen. Moving Chapman to the pen was the reasonable thing to do.
Everybody, except maybe Dusty, realizes Chapman is much more valuable out of the rotation, but at this point in the season moving Chapman to the rotation seems unlikely and probably not in the best interest of the team. Chapman would need to be stretched out, which likely means he would need considerable time and innings in AAA. With the way our pitching has been unable to go deep into games(Latos, Leake and Bailey come to mind), losing Chapman would be a pretty big blow, as he can go multiple innings. Plus, there is no guarantee that Chapman, himself, would be able to go deep into games if he were in the rotation.
Everybody, except maybe Dusty, realizes Chapman is much more valuable out of the rotation, but at this point in the season moving Chapman to the rotation seems unlikely and probably not in the best interest of the team. Chapman would need to be stretched out, which likely means he would need considerable time and innings in AAA. With the way our pitching has been unable to go deep into games(Latos, Leake and Bailey come to mind), losing Chapman would be a pretty big blow, as he can go multiple innings. Plus, there is no guarantee that Chapman, himself, would be able to go deep into games if he were in the rotation.
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scott91575
Resident hater
Jt4prez;2156846; said:
Sorry, no matter how hard you try, a starter is way more important than a reliever. The only reason a guy should be in the bullpen is because he is not good at starting, especially when you have a team that has a guy with a 6+ ERA in the rotation.
There is simply no reason to take the guy who is probably the most talented pitcher in the rotation, who is slated to be a starter, and waste him in the bullpen. There is a reason bullpen arms make squat compared to starters. They simply do not put in enough innings. When there is a need in the rotation, you fill that first. Then you worry about the bullpen.
I suppose they thought they could get away with Leake in the rotation, but it should not have been Chapman in the bullpen. He should be starting and the fact he is in the bullpen to start with was a horrible decision. He should be well on his way to being one of the best young pitchers in the game. Instead he is wasting away in the bullpen learning a trade he should not be doing.
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Jt4prez
All-American
scott91575;2156850; said:
I'm not debating that a starter is more important than a reliever, just saying that moving Chapman to the bullpen was the only reasonable thing to do under the circumstances. I believe we maximize Chapman's value to the team by having him pitch out of the rotation, but the fact of the matter is we lost 3/7 of the bullpen and those 3 were valuable pieces, one of which(Bray) we literally had no replacement for.
Also, there was not a need in the rotation at the beginning of the year. Bailey was coming off of a tremendous 2nd half of the season and Leake was statistically our 2nd best pitcher last season. The only hole in the rotation was Arroyo, who, even if he lost his right arm, would still be in the rotation.
Finally, there is no guarantee that Chapman would be as dominant out of the rotation as everyone assumes he would be. Chapman is not the most talented pitcher in the rotation, Cueto is, and pitching out of the rotation requires much more than pure "stuff" to be successful or qualify a pitcher as the most talented. If pure stuff got the job done then Cueto would be throwing 94-95 consistently, Jamie Moyer would have been out of the majors 12 years ago and Daniel Cabrera would still be in MLB winning Cy Youngs. While Chapman is best used in the rotation circumstances necessitated otherwise and there is really nothing that the Reds could do(or should do) to change that until next season.
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scott91575
Resident hater
Jt4prez;2156854; said:
From a talent standpoint I would say Chapman is far and away more talented than anyone the Reds have (he might be the most talented pitcher in baseball). Yet right now Cueto is a better pitcher. There is a difference between talent and performance. Lots of talented players are out of the league and many middle of the road talents are on 20 year careers.
Anyway, I am not saying you even start Chapman in the rotation. They should have kept him as a starter and even started him in AAA if they needed to. It was a terrible idea from the start putting him in the bullpen. It was an act of desperation last year that continued to this year. He should have been learning how to be a starter for the past year. Instead he has been in the bullpen, and worst of all succeeded so now Dusty won't let him start. All the while we get to watch Leake get completely destroyed every 5 days with no one in the minors to bring up.
I consider Chapman in the bullpen incredibly short sighted (both then and now). Now the Reds are stuck with Leake in the rotation instead of Chapman. Even if they do swap to Chapman eventually he may not be up to it since he has spent so much time in the bullpen.
You should never take a kid and throw him in the bullpen until you know if he can start or not. Plain and simple. You can find mediocre relief pitchers across the entire league and it will only cost you a couple used jockstraps (or Juan Francisco). The Reds have no idea if Chapman can be a successful starter, and that is completely unacceptable in my mind considering the importance of starting pitching.
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Jt4prez
All-American
scott91575;2156866; said:
I dont want to get into a an argument about what "talent" is or is not, but I'll just say that Cueto is the more talented SP and Chapman has the most natural talent. Whatever the intelligible difference, it does not really matter, all that matters for the purpose of my argument is that Chapman is not a sure-fire stud out of the rotation, despite his talent, and because of our need in the bullpen and the perceived strength of our rotation, it was and is best to use him there this season. If Chapman we not in the bullpen and had mediocre pitchers in his place imagine where the Reds would be at this point in the season. Certainly more than 1.5 games back.
Obviously it, most likely, would have been best to use and keep Chapman in the rotation from the day he inked his contract. That has not happened, but just because somebody is in the bullpen does not mean they're relegated to that role for their career. This season, Lance Lynn and Jeff Smardjzia have both made the jump quite successfully. Samardzjzia ran through our lineup a week ago. David Price was used in the pen, as was Matt Moore, albeit for shorter stints than Chapman has. CJ Wilson was a reliever for about 4 years and he now has 75 million reasons not to complain about it. Dennis Eckersley also comes to mind. Putting somebody in the bullpen does not mean they cannot be starters and successful ones at that. What cannot happen is for Chapman to be shuttled back and forth between roles during the season-- i.e. Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain.
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