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Rafael Palmeiro suspended for 'Roids !

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good point, now that i think about it, i doubt he was on them at the time of the statement, if he was then that was a ballsy thing to do. This would also explain the drop off he had last year and the begining of this year. These guy's egos are amazing. All he had to do was ride off into the sunset and people would have atributed the fall off to age, now he is a talking point and an example
 
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Perjury? Can our government in good conscience prosecute for somebody for lying in the legislature? Oh, the hipocrisy!

This man used to be employed by President Bush. Conspiracy theories abound!

Hall of Fame? Sure, let him in. Let Rose in too - and Joe Jackson. It's not the HALL OF HONOR, it's the Hall of Fame, and there are plenty of dispicable characters there already. Spitballers and racists and thugs. I say if they were famous for their expolits on the diamond, let them in. Just make sure that on their plaque, it is just noted how big of cheats, racists, liars, and crooks these people are. Lets do justice to the history of the game by not hiding away all of the people who give the game a black eye.<box id="mozilla-image-toolbar" hidden="false"><toolbar class="toolbar-primary chromeclass-toolbar" mode="icons"><toolbarbutton label="" class="mozilla-image-toolbar" id="imageToolbarSaveImage"></toolbarbutton><toolbarbutton label="" class="mozilla-image-toolbar" id="imageToolbarCopyImage"></toolbarbutton><toolbarbutton label="" class="mozilla-image-toolbar" id="imageToolbarEmailImage" style="display: none;"></toolbarbutton><toolbarbutton label="" class="mozilla-image-toolbar" id="imageToolbarPrintImage" style="display: none;"></toolbarbutton><toolbarbutton label="" class="mozilla-image-toolbar" id="imageToolbarOpenFolder"></toolbarbutton></toolbar></box>
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High Lonesome: "This would also explain the drop off he had last year and the begining of this year."

Dude, he's 40 years old. A drop off (steroids or not) is natural. A player's production dropping off at 39 doesn't have to be attributed to anything.

jlb1705: "It's not the HALL OF HONOR, it's the Hall of Fame, and there are plenty of dispicable characters there already. Spitballers and racists and thugs."

Hold on just a sec. The Football HOF doesn't have a morals clause for induction. The baseball HOF DOES. Big Difference. Ty Cobb & Cap Anson were racists, but they were inducted at a time when "racism" wasn't even really a word in our culture (the late 30's/early 40's).

Plus, with the exception of the 1919 Black Sox, there's no solid proof that any of the HOF'ers gambled on the sport.

Induction into the HOF is a revolutionary process. Its way different criteria in 2005 than it was in 1955, or '65, or '45.

For example, did you know that Joe DiMaggio wasn't a first ballot HOF'er? In 1956, DiMaggio wasn't considered what we see today as a "no brainer" HOF'er because Hall Induction was so limited to a super small sample of the very elite: he didn't have 3,000 hits, 500 homers, or any of the "magic" totals - even though he easily is the 2nd best player of his generation & a 3 time MVP.

If Joe D was up for election today, he'd be in on a landslide first ballot.

In 1935, Ty Cobb's transgressions weren't widely known, and most people didn't care. In 1989, EVERYONE knew that Pete Rose bet on baseball, and just letting him in the Hall wasn't so simple.
 
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I think its important to mention that there is an important difference between being a racist and betting on Baseball, in that being a racist isn't against the rules... Gambling is. (not only is it agianst the rules... it is prime directive number one of any athlete, "Thou shalt not bet on a game you are involved in")

Also, the character clause isn't independent in evaluting a player for candidacy.... nor is it the character clause that's keeping Rose (or Joe Jackson) out of the HOF... they are on the dreaded "ineligible list."

Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
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Also... I tend to think that the character clause is used to give preference to borderline statistical candidates.... Not saying I'm against using it the other way... but the reality is that even if McGwire was juicing... it wasnt' even against the rules.

Anyway... on Joe D, you have to remember, back then, they were still catching up on guys who deserved to be in but had waited longer. (Not saying the were more deserving than DiMaggio... but still Deserving).
 
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Dude, he's 40 years old. A drop off (steroids or not) is natural. A player's production dropping off at 39 doesn't have to be attributed to anything.
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Thats exactly what I am saying, if you notice though he has started hitting again and now has almost 20 HR. Conveniently he has also tested positive for steriods. I was just noting that he very well could have stopped and started
 
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AKAK: "being a racist isn't against the rules... Gambling is"

Great point. I don't think most people realize that Cobb was voted into the Hall of Fame 12 years before baseball ITSELF was even integrated.

"Anyway... on Joe D, you have to remember, back then, they were still catching up on guys who deserved to be in but had waited longer. (Not saying the were more deserving than DiMaggio... but still Deserving)."

No question about it. Agree 100%.
 
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You're right. I think they have the power to change this and be fair in the process. Instead of sweeping this kind of thing under the rug, how about putting it on their plaques? Why put a plaque up in Cooperstown that says Palmeiro got 500+ HR, 3000+ hits, was a cheater, and gave the game a black eye? I think that's fair, and I think if that kind of approach were taken, players would think a little more about their legacy before they cheat. I just don't think it's right for baseball to punish these guys and then go on as if it never happened.
 
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jlb1705 said:
You're right. I think they have the power to change this and be fair in the process. Instead of sweeping this kind of thing under the rug, how about putting it on their plaques? Why put a plaque up in Cooperstown that says Palmeiro got 500+ HR, 3000+ hits, was a cheater, and gave the game a black eye? I think that's fair, and I think if that kind of approach were taken, players would think a little more about their legacy before they cheat. I just don't think it's right for baseball to punish these guys and then go on as if it never happened.
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I'm not saying they shouldn't do something about it... I'm jsut saying that in and of itslef, this won't keep them out of Cooperstown.

Anyway... How about a this on the plaque...

Raffy Palmeiro (S)

Kind of like the (L) you see on the racing form next to horses that get lasix or whatever it is for their hearts....
 
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Sloopy45 said:
Also, in '88 the Cubs had two up & coming 1B: Rafael Palmeiro and Mark Grace. Don Zimmer has said many times publically that Palmeiro was traded because he never thought that he'd hit for power. 560+ homers later ..
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I didnt read this entire thread, so if anybody brought it up already, I sincerely apologize for the redundancy, but did anyone bring up the old rumor about Raffy sleeping with Ryne Sandberg's wife?

Supposedly that is why the Cubbies traded him back in the day. I don't know how much truth there was to the rumor, but if it did happen, it shows what kind of a guy you are dealing with.

I am a Rangers fan and Raffy helped my franchise in the offensive categories, and I hate to see this happen. But he has had that moustache for a really long time, and I was kind of getting sick of it.
 
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baseball itself has a legacy of cheating, why not just put a wing in the hall that is dedicated to the seedy side of the game. People are facinated by it anyway, from the blacksox to rose to steroids and everything in between. People can't get enough of that crap so give it to them. Its the same as when people are facinated by serial killers or gangsters. Bad guys sell tickets, why not aknowledge them, especially when they actually had all the talent in the world i.e. pete rose
 
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High Lonesome said:
I was just noting that he very well could have stopped and started
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Speaking of stopping and starting...how about giambi's torrid month of july?

I'm not defending Raffy, but a good portion of the homer jump could be him locking in as a player ('93--37hrs--was only his 6th full season). Also, don't forget the overall homer binge which started in the late 90's with the juiced balls, smaller parks, and watered down pitching. That could have contributed to his continued 35+hr seasons as he got older.
 
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texasfight06: "but did anyone bring up the old rumor about Raffy sleeping with Ryne Sandberg's wife?"

I don't know if Sandberg was involved or not, but Raffy has a rep for sleeping with his teammates' wives. I had thought it was more than one teammate, and not just on the Cubs.

"Supposedly that is why the Cubbies traded him back in the day."

Well, if you take Zimmer at his word, Raffy had his breakout season in '88: he was 2nd in the NL with a .307 AVG (obvioulsy before the live ball era, Gwynn was tops with a .313 AVG), but he only had 8 HR & 53 RBI. And that was at Wrigley Field!

Next year, for the Rangers he had 8 HR & 64 RBI. In '90, his 2nd year in Texas, he hit 14 HR & 89 RBI.

How many guys on the 500 HR list started their first 3 full seasons with 8, 8, & 14 HR?

I mean, live ball era or not, that's going from NO power whatsoever in two very hitter friendly ballparks to eventually becoming 4th on the all-time HR list. Raffy was always a good AVG hitter, but he wasn't even a good run producer until he drove in 105 runs in '93: his totals from '88 to '92 were 53, 64, 89, 88, & 85 RBI. Not even close to what he would eventually become.

thenumber7: "Speaking of stopping and starting...how about giambi's torrid month of july?"

Yeah, and? If Giambi started up again, we'll know soon enough.
 
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