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Question(s) for Christians

fourteenandoh;1684009; said:
Did the government tell Jesus he had to feed the masses? There is a huge difference between being charitable on your own (which last I checked the US is by far the most charitable country in the world), and having someone take your money and hand it out to whomever they think needs it.

Well, that's a fair enough distinction, but I was responding to Dayton's assertion regarding the promotion of self-reliance. Of course, self-reliance implies an aversion to all forms of third-party assistance, including that from charity.

This goes beyond the topic of the thread, but my ultimate response would be that I'd prefer not to have modern govenment dictated by a particular interpretation of a religious book written thousands of years ago, but that's just me. If government can fill voids that private charity cannot account for, and do so in a reasonably effective manner, I'm all for it.

I'm curious as to your response regarding the quote about giving unto Caesar what is rightly his, which is referenced above. Do you view that passage as anything other than an endorsement of the State's legitimate power to tax and spend?
 
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Sepia - I have always considered the "Give unto Caesar" as you suggest, with the paired meaning that G-d has no use for money anyway. Which, in my view of what an all powerful G-d would be, makes sense. I mean, what is there to buy if you have the power to simply will it?
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1684019; said:
Sepia - I have always considered the "Give unto Caesar" as you suggest, with the paired meaning that G-d has no use for money anyway. Which, in my view of what an all powerful G-d would be, makes sense. I mean, what is there to buy if you have the power to simply will it?

Not even G-d can simply "will" hookers and blow, man.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1684014; said:
If I am to divine meaning from your response, I have to assume you believe a good Christian will help those down on their luck - ie with healthcare, or food, or whatever - via other means. So.. I have to conclude you're not against the programs themselves, in so much as the goal being sought to accomplish.

Paired with the "having someone take your money and hand it out to whomever they think needs it" remark, I have to assume you have some kind of problem with the programs the Gov. has chosen to run in effort to assist people (ie healthcare, or food, or whatever).

I assume (and have an element of this thinking in my own mind) that while the Christian duty to help the needy may seem to match up with the stated goal of many social government programs, there is a real skepticism that the government can accomplish as much good with as little money as individuals or other private charitable organizations, and without siphoning off a significant portion for the personal and partisan interests of the politicians involved. Same goes for a basic gov't effort like building roads, but at least after all our money gets spread around that usually creates something tangible to see and drive to work on.

If "public service" were really just about serving the public, and social programs could be expected to simply do good, and the legislation involved wasn't so bloated with pork and earmarks and (D)/(R) tomfoolery, any Christian should be happy to give their hard-earned money to such worthy causes as preventing hunger and homelessness and sickness and debt ... BUT c'mon, these are career politicians deciding what to do with federal money for their career political purposes, and I (as one Christian among many) don't trust their intentions, let alone their methods.
 
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I probably should have led off with this question, but why is this even a religious issue? By your question, you are implying that because someone is christian, they are against healthcare. That is obviously not the case. There are plenty of christians who are for healthcare legislation.

Furthermore, a quick google search of recent polls showed that 83% of Americans identified themselves as Christians. With a group that big, my guess is that any polling of Christians only will mirror a poll of all Americans. IMO, you may as well have made a thread asking why so many blondes are against healthcare or any other arbitrary group for that matter.

Correlation does not always imply causation.
 
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Tonyank;1683999; said:
So there is a man floating in the sky ?
Man. Large mass of pasta. Whatever.

flying_spaghetti_monster-tm.jpg
 
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BayBuck;1684048; said:
I assume (and have an element of this thinking in my own mind) that while the Christian duty to help the needy may seem to match up with the stated goal of many social government programs, there is a real skepticism that the government can accomplish as much good with as little money as individuals or other private charitable organizations, and without siphoning off a significant portion for the personal and partisan interests of the politicians involved. Same goes for a basic gov't effort like building roads, but at least after all our money gets spread around that usually creates something tangible to see and drive to work on.

If "public service" were really just about serving the public, and social programs could be expected to simply do good, and the legislation involved wasn't so bloated with pork and earmarks and (D)/(R) tomfoolery, any Christian should be happy to give their hard-earned money to such worthy causes as preventing hunger and homelessness and sickness and debt ... BUT c'mon, these are career politicians deciding what to do with federal money for their career political purposes, and I (as one Christian among many) don't trust their intentions, let alone their methods.
I appreciate your response, but I am a little thrown off where you talk about skepticism - as the skepticism would be a political, not religious, issue. But, I assume you're argument sounds in a theory like what 14-0 just posted - in a country where some 80+% of people identify themselves as Christian - it's hardly a wonder that some will be in favor and other not in favor of various governmental practice.

I do have to wonder, though, if the idea of public assistance is not disagreeable to Christians, why skepticism would trump. I don't say this as though you believe it or are advocating the position- but to me, it comes down to a dichotomy between "Do what's right" but "not with my money"

I dont know... it seems a simpler analysis to me. I mean, I get skepticism of the government... but.. right result even if for the wrong reason still = right result, no?
 
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fourteenandoh;1684056; said:
I probably should have led off with this question, but why is this even a religious issue?
A lot of Christians are republicans. A lot of republicans oppose social programs. I'm asking whether or not that contradicts Christianity.
By your question, you are implying that because someone is christian, they are against healthcare.
No I'm not.
 
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Buckeye513;1684066; said:
A lot of Christians are republicans. A lot of republicans oppose social programs. I'm asking whether or not that contradicts Christianity.
No I'm not.
A fair clarification. The question, then, isn't whether Christians might be in favor of, or not in favor of whatever. The question is why are Christian Republicans not in favor of public assistance programs.

I suppose this sets a different spin on my comment to Bay regarding the Skepticism trumping the generalize "agreement" with such programming (In theory, if not in practice) In other words, and cutting to the quick (At the risk of overstating it):
why does politics trump religion?
 
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I'm probably just echoing at lot of what has already been stated, but hopefully this is additive rather than just parroting.

As a Christian, I do believe in a communal responsibility to my neighbor. After all, I am to love my neighbor (even my enemy), which means I am to help care for the poor, the sick, and the unfortunate; but it als also means, I should support the rich, the healthy, and the fortunate--just in different ways. This is a personal responsibility I have and it is why I give up a lot of my time as a teacher--where my G-d given talents rest--to my community. It is also why I give financially whenever I can, but keeping in mind that I should avoid, when possible, giving to the point where I become a burden on anyone else.

This financial support starts with my own immediate family, so they are not a burden on the extended family. I then support my extended family, so they are not a burden to the community. Then, I support my community (for me that is my congregation), so they are not a burden to the society. Finally, I support the society. This working from the closest and most direct, to the farthest and most removed is the form of charity I believe the Bible teaches. By behaving this way, it requires me to actually show love toward my neighbor, for often this type of support is more demanding of me that just giving a few or a lot of dollars to a charitable organization. For example, take giving $$ for Katrina or Haiti relief. While it makes me feel good to give money, at least temporarily, I am often left with a sense of how little I actually gave of myself and how I failed to show love. A real expression of love would be to go to Haiti to physically help the people or adopt a Haitan orphan.

Now all of that is addressing how I believe I as a Christian should act. When you bring the government into the equation, it becomes a lot more complicated. First, I am commanded to obey the government and to render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. Therefore, if the government requires money or other things of me, I am to give it as long as it does not cause me to sin--i.e. violate G-d's commandments. Thus, if government taxes me to support my neighbors, then I pay the tax, even though I do not see that as an act of showing love to my neighbor--after all, the tax is coerced, not given by a willing heart. And when I think of how I could have used that money to support the needy in my family and community, where I would have given out of love, it does bother me. Nonetheless, I give it to the government.

In addition to all of this, there are also my political views, which result in having little faith in governmental institutions, especially those most removed from the individual--i.e. I have a lot of faith in local government, essentially zero in the federal. Thus, even though I give to Caesar what is due, I don't expect Caesar to use that money wisely, efficiently, or morally. Add to this distrust, the fact that I am a Tocquevillian conservative, by which I believe the more an individual gives over to government to take care of the community's needs, the more the individual diminishes himself by becoming less concerned with those in his community and the more tyrannical the government becomes because the individual selfishly relenquishes his power and authority to the government inorder to take care of his neighbors, so as not to be bothered by them. Finally, I view federal and state government institutions to be in competition with the family and the local community for loyalty and resources. Therefore, an increase in government power, finances, and regulation means a diminishment of family and communal power, finances, and regulations. (All of this is a messy and unorganized expression of my political beliefs, but there isn't time to expound upon them).

Anyway, that is my abbreviated answer to the question of the thread.
 
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buckeyegrad;1684101; said:
I'm probably just echoing at lot of what has already been stated, but hopefully this is additive rather than just parroting.

As a Christian, I do believe in a communal responsibility to my neighbor. After all, I am to love my neighbor (even my enemy), which means I am to help care for the poor, the sick, and the unfortunate; but it als also means, I should support the rich, the healthy, and the fortunate--just in different ways. This is a personal responsibility I have and it is why I give up a lot of my time as a teacher--where my G-d given talents rest--to my community. It is also why I give financially whenever I can, but keeping in mind that I should avoid, when possible, giving to the point where I become a burden on anyone else.

This financial support starts with my own immediate family, so they are not a burden on the extended family. I then support my extended family, so they are not a burden to the community. Then, I support my community (for me that is my congregation), so they are not a burden to the society. Finally, I support the society. This working from the closest and most direct, to the farthest and most removed is the form of charity I believe the Bible teaches. By behaving this way, it requires me to actually show love toward my neighbor, for often this type of support is more demanding of me that just giving a few or a lot of dollars to a charitable organization. For example, take giving $$ for Katrina or Haiti relief. While it makes me feel good to give money, at least temporarily, I am often left with a sense of how little I actually gave of myself and how I failed to show love. A real expression of love would be to go to Haiti to physically help the people or adopt a Haitan orphan.

Now all of that is addressing how I believe I as a Christian should act. When you bring the government into the equation, it becomes a lot more complicated. First, I am commanded to obey the government and to render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. Therefore, if the government requires money or other things of me, I am to give it as long as it does not cause me to sin--i.e. violate G-d's commandments. Thus, if government taxes me to support my neighbors, then I pay the tax, even though I do not see that as an act of showing love to my neighbor--after all, the tax is coerced, not given by a willing heart. And when I think of how I could have used that money to support the needy in my family and community, where I would have given out of love, it does bother me. Nonetheless, I give it to the government.

In addition to all of this, there are also my political views, which result in having little faith in governmental institutions, especially those most removed from the individual--i.e. I have a lot of faith in local government, essentially zero in the federal. Thus, even though I give to Caesar what is due, I don't expect Caesar to use that money wisely, efficiently, or morally. Add to this distrust, the fact that I am a Tocquevillian conservative, by which I believe the more an individual gives over to government to take care of the community's needs, the more the individual diminishes himself by becoming less concerned with those in his community and the more tyrannical the government becomes because the individual selfishly relenquishes his power and authority to the government inorder to take care of his neighbors, so as not to be bothered by them. Finally, I view federal and state government institutions to be in competition with the family and the local community for loyalty and resources. Therefore, an increase in government power, finances, and regulation means a diminishment of family and communal power, finances, and regulations. (All of this is a messy and unorganized expression of my political beliefs, but there isn't time to expound upon them).

Anyway, that is my abbreviated answer to the question of the thread.

Very well stated...
 
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But, I assume you're argument sounds in a theory like what 14-0 just posted - in a country where some 80+% of people identify themselves as Christian - it's hardly a wonder that some will be in favor and other not in favor of various governmental practice.
There's also the matter of how America defines themselves as Christians. There are a lot of revealing surveys out there, like 2/3 of Christianity believing Satan & the Holy Spirit are simply symbolic and don't really exist. That is just one of a long list of fundamental beliefs & principles that American Christianity just reshapes to fit their world view or lifestyle.

Another survey
In the Barna survey, 71 percent of American adults say they are more likely to develop their own set of religious beliefs than to accept a defined set of teachings from a particular church. Even among born-again Christians, 61 percent pick and choose from the beliefs of different denominations. For people under the age of 25, the number rises to 82 percent.
Christians expressed a variety of unorthodox beliefs in the poll. Nearly half of those interviewed do not believe in the existence of Satan, one-third believe [COLOR=#0000EE ! important][COLOR=#0000EE ! important]Jesus[/COLOR][/COLOR] sinned while on earth, and two-fifths say they don't have a responsibility to share their faith with others.
The most striking divergence from orthodoxy, however, was first revealed in the 2007 US Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. That comprehensive survey of 35,000 Americans found a majority of Christians saying that people of other religions can find salvation and eternal life.
If someone wants to believe in another religion or none whatsoever, more power to them. But Christianity simply doesn't leave room for the contradictory and muddled nature of the beliefs found in most Christians today (in america, at least).
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1684064; said:
I appreciate your response, but I am a little thrown off where you talk about skepticism - as the skepticism would be a political, not religious, issue. But, I assume you're argument sounds in a theory like what 14-0 just posted - in a country where some 80+% of people identify themselves as Christian - it's hardly a wonder that some will be in favor and other not in favor of various governmental practice.

I do have to wonder, though, if the idea of public assistance is not disagreeable to Christians, why skepticism would trump. I don't say this as though you believe it or are advocating the position- but to me, it comes down to a dichotomy between "Do what's right" but "not with my money"

I dont know... it seems a simpler analysis to me. I mean, I get skepticism of the government... but.. right result even if for the wrong reason still = right result, no?

The skepticism I refer to is of the government's ability to do the right thing, even when they are putting out the right PR and passing legislation which is purportedly doing the right thing. The follow-up question was posed, "why does politics trump religion?" and I think the answer is that the politics are bad enough that a particular religious person has a reasonable expectation that government simply cannot effect the kind of good that it says it can.

Simply passing a major healthcare reform bill isn't the "right result" if it's watered down with all the usual partisan and political garbage: if I believed this thing would be all for the good for the most people and not ultimately be a detriment to our economy and our nation, I'd support it, but I just don't believe the people who enacted it and who will implement it will make it so.
 
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