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409fold
All-American
Here's 2 sets of statistics. Take them FWIW:
(1) Paterno was a combined 155-18-2 (.891) in his career against BC, Maryland, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, and WVU --- the 7 schools PSU played regularly in the 1966-1992 era (pre-Big Ten) and schools that can be fairly classified as Eastern teams. 15-3 (.833) against Army and Navy, with all but 2 of those games occurring prior to 1975. 4-0 against Eastern lightweights like Brown, Buffalo, Colgate and William & Mary that were played in one-off games. 235-115-1 (.671) against everyone else. Penn State has never played Connecticut, FWIW.
Anyway, the 7 Eastern teams, it's absolutely fair to call 3 of them "weak eastern teams" (Maryland, Rutgers, Temple) during the 1966-1992 era. But BC, Pitt, Syracuse and WVU? I wouldn't define them as "weak eastern teams" during the 1996-1992 era. Pitt was a legitimate national power under Johnny Majors and Jackie Sherrill, and won a MNC. WVU played for a MNC, Syracuse was legit in the 1980s, BC had intermittent good stretches and even made a run at a MNC themselves in 1984.
In fact, the aggregate record of each of Pittsburgh, Syracuse, BC, and WVU during the 1966-1992 era is better than the aggregate record of any Big Ten team outside of Michigan or Ohio State. Fair enough to argue those were "weak eastern teams" in the 1966-1992 era, but that's drawing a rather wide circle in terms of classifying a team as "weak."
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(2) Looking at another lens: from 1977-1986 (Paterno's best 10 year run), Penn State went 98-21-1. 36-1 (0.973) against teams that were "bad" in that era (Army, Brown, Cincinnati, Colgate, ECU, Maryland, Ohio Bobcats, Rutgers, Temple, Tulane, Utah State, William & Mary). 14-12 (0.538) against teams that were "very good" in that era (Alabama, Georgia, Miami, Nebraska, Ohio State, Oklahoma, USC, Texas, Texas A&M, Washington). 6-3-1 against Pittsburgh, who could theoretically be classified as "very good" (they did win a MNC in 1981) but I excluded them.
Now, .973 vs. .538, that's a hell of a difference. But how does that compare vs. Ohio State in 1968-1977 (probably Woody Hayes' best 10-year stretch in Columbus)?
Ohio State was 91-16-2. 12-10-2 (0.542) against teams that were "very good" in that era (Alabama, Michigan, Oklahoma, Penn St, USC, Stanford - included because this was a Rose Bowl game, Texas A&M, UCLA, Washington). 6-3 against Michigan State, who could theoretically be classified as "very good" but I excluded them (analogous to Pitt in 1977-1986). 32-1 (0.971) against Illinois, Indiana, Iowa and Northwestern, who it would be fair to classify as "bad" in that era (each of them had an aggregate winning percentage of .340 or less).
Is there much difference there at all? Not that I see.
Woody Hayes was inarguably a "great" college football coach in his prime. Joe was a "great" college football coach in his prime as well.
The PSU scandal is what it is. I don't look at Joe favorably for his role in such. But the above paragraph --- that also is what it is. Outside the scandal, Joe was "inarguably great" IMO at his job when he was in his prime. That's proven out in his overall record, Bowl record, stats and MNCs.
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409, I think SOS would be an underlying issue in that discussion but whether or not Paterno was a great coach during his best years is not the point.
The point is what he was willing to overlook and what that university let him overlook as he chased his 409. And that's why he will always be a scumbag for me and why I have no respect for that university. The Cult is not just BWI, it is everyone of you that defends those bastards.
The point is what he was willing to overlook and what that university let him overlook as he chased his 409. And that's why he will always be a scumbag for me and why I have no respect for that university. The Cult is not just BWI, it is everyone of you that defends those bastards.
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Find me one Penn Stater that would have said Joe Paterno wasn't still in his prime when they joined the B1G.
Not the revisionist history we get today about the tired old man/figurehead but at the time when they were convinced they were going to dominate the conference.
Not the revisionist history we get today about the tired old man/figurehead but at the time when they were convinced they were going to dominate the conference.
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409fold
All-American
My response to Zurp was simply in disagreement with his usage of the word "might" in his statement "I'd say that if we take away the scandal, Paterno might have been "great"." I provided supporting evidence for my disagreement. He's the one who said "if we take away the scandal", not me.
Anyway, I did address the scandal. I'll repeat it: "I don't look at Joe favorably for his role in (the scandal)."
I've been consistent in that message among the times that I have been a guest poster on your board. I do NOT "defend that bastard." If you're classifying me as a person who defends of JoePa's role in the Sandusky affair, that's an incorrect classification.
Regarding strength-of-schedule, reference my previous response to you. I grant that PSU's strength-of-schedule was weak in Paterno's earliest years, but it was definitely legit during Paterno's best years (back half of the 1970s and 1980s).
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409, by "you" in my post, I refer to Penn State fans, not you in particular. I think we all understand your viewpoint.
I find it impossible to separate Paterno from his actions, as I do the bigger monster OJ Simpson. I don't care what he did in the W-L columns. He was a coach. His job was to develop young men. Instead, seeking his egoistic goal, he enabled a pedophile.
He will never be viewed as a great coach.
I find it impossible to separate Paterno from his actions, as I do the bigger monster OJ Simpson. I don't care what he did in the W-L columns. He was a coach. His job was to develop young men. Instead, seeking his egoistic goal, he enabled a pedophile.
He will never be viewed as a great coach.
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409fold
All-American
Not the revisionist history we get today about the tired old man/figurehead but at the time when they were convinced they were going to dominate the conference.[/QUOTE]
Joe was definitely "fully fit and competent for the job" from 1966 to the late-2000s-ish. If I had to name an exact year on the back-end: 2008. He was hurt for much of that year, coaching from the press box, and had also stopped going on the road to recruit.
"Fully fit and competent for the job" is arguably different than "prime of one's career", though. I don't know. Take these two statistics FWIW:
(1) Paterno was 66 years old when Penn State joined the B1G in 1993. Since 1960, there are only 2 head coaches who have won a MNC at 66 or beyond. Bobby Bowden (Florida State, 1999, 70 years old) and Bear Bryant (Alabama, 1979, 66 years old). Nick Saban is still only 64.
(2) For any number X between 1 and 10: Penn State had a better aggregate record in their first X years as a Big Ten member (1993 and later) than they did in their last X years as an independent (1992 and before).
Joe was definitely "fully fit and competent for the job" from 1966 to the late-2000s-ish. If I had to name an exact year on the back-end: 2008. He was hurt for much of that year, coaching from the press box, and had also stopped going on the road to recruit.
"Fully fit and competent for the job" is arguably different than "prime of one's career", though. I don't know. Take these two statistics FWIW:
(1) Paterno was 66 years old when Penn State joined the B1G in 1993. Since 1960, there are only 2 head coaches who have won a MNC at 66 or beyond. Bobby Bowden (Florida State, 1999, 70 years old) and Bear Bryant (Alabama, 1979, 66 years old). Nick Saban is still only 64.
(2) For any number X between 1 and 10: Penn State had a better aggregate record in their first X years as a Big Ten member (1993 and later) than they did in their last X years as an independent (1992 and before).
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Zurp
I have misplaced my pants.
I guess I need to re-research my FAX, or at least find out where I saw them the first time. I remembered an embarrassing win percentage against a slew of teams that shouldn't be fit to be on the same field as Penn State, and a mediocre at best record against competitive opponents. But that's probably not fair, anyway. Take out the mediocre Big Ten teams from Ohio State's schedules and history would probably show similar numbers.
And yeah - I was probably the one who brought up "if we take away the scandal." I wouldn't have a problem using the adjective "great" with him, in that case. I don't remember now why I brought that up, though.
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I may have posted something that you're remembering Zurp. I came across an old spreadsheet which shows that Pedterno was:
12-0 against teams which were win-less in the season they played PSU
20-0 against 1 win teams
28-0 against 2 win teams
47-4 against 3 win teams.
Total: 107-4 against the weaklings
Conversely, he was
0-1 against 14 win teams
0-1 against 13 win teams
1-12 against 12 win teams
3-22 against 11 win teams
11-27 against 10 win teams
15-63 against the elite
12-0 against teams which were win-less in the season they played PSU
20-0 against 1 win teams
28-0 against 2 win teams
47-4 against 3 win teams.
Total: 107-4 against the weaklings
Conversely, he was
0-1 against 14 win teams
0-1 against 13 win teams
1-12 against 12 win teams
3-22 against 11 win teams
11-27 against 10 win teams
15-63 against the elite
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Dayum, I know he "coached" for a long time, but I find it hard to fathom that a major college coach would ever face 12 no win teams. Unless of course he was in charge of the schedule 100%.
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Paterno had one losing season (1988, 5-6) in the 27 years as head coach before joining the B1G. He had four losing seasons in a five-year period after joining the B1G. While Paterno did quite well initially in the B1G because of the increase in TV exposure and the resulting recruiting bump, it wasn't all that long until they started their slide into relative mediocrity due to the punishment of playing in a physical conference like the B1G...
Paterno's overall record at Penn State before joining B1G: 247-67-3 (0.784)
Paterno's overall record at Penn State after joining B1G: 154-68-0 (0.694)
That's a huge 0.090 dropoff.
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Building on this, Urban Meyer is 50-4 at Ohio State, including a 31-1 conference record (not including CCGs). His has not one but two 20+ game win streaks including a stunning 30-game regular-season conference winning streak. But, moreimpressive is his record against 10-win teams, where he went 7-3:
2012: W Neb (10-4)
2013: L MSU (13-1), L Clem (11-2)
2014: W MSU (11-2), W Wisc (11-3), W Ala (12-2), W Ore (13-2)
2015: L MSU (12-2), W Mich (10-3), W ND (10-3)
Meyer is a solid 7-3 against 10-win teams, and is a staggering 43-1 against teams with 9 or fewer wins.
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