Oversigning (capacity 25, everyone welcome! maybe)

[jwinslow]

So if the cause and effect nexus of over-signing to performance was as strong as some would suggest, then it should be apparent that the Big East has better teams and perceived superior programs than the Big-10.

Riiiight, because that's a terrific comparison. Big East teams definitely don't go dumpster diving in comparison to the recruits that B10 or SEC powers land.

How about we look at Georgia, who signs elite talent too but does not engage in the blatant oversigning that LSU, Bama, Arkansas, Ole Miss and others partake in annually?

That seems like a lot better correlation than trying yet again to erect this strawman who is a dual threat, you can knock him down easily and he scares off any lengthy stay in the realm of this topic.

 

[jwinslow]

I will leave you with this one stat: The SEC has had as many schools (four) win national championships in the past five years (Florida, LSU, Alabama and Auburn) as the Big Ten has in the 74-year history of the AP poll (Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota and Ohio State).

And there's the scoreboard smack. Nice.

 

[jwinslow]

note, I'm not really arguing with you as much as using it as a sounding board

Translation to tOSU terms...players like "insert any 4th or 5th year senior who never cracked 2 deep for whatever reason" would have been cut 2 years ago at a handful of schools in the SEC.

Legal? Yes.

Moral? Define morality and outline its standards.

College football is a business. Period. Bad things happen every day on every campus. Some are more bold than others...but that does not at all excuse the less bold.

Oversigning is an issue...but not that much of an excuse.

If OSU oversigned like Bama or LSU, they could jettison kids like Connor Smith & Josh Kerr years ago, and in turn could have signed Zebrie Sanders in addition to Adams & Shugarts, which would have helped their depth these last 3 years (and Zebrie may very well have started ahead of one or both at first).

They don't keep kids like Grant Schwartz, Nate Oliver, Nic DiLillo. Have kids transferred out of OSU with their coach's blessing? Sure, but OSU does not go out and sign 10 extra kids and then find ways to usher them out the door by the next fall. LSU & Bama have been shown to do that for multiple seasons in a row.

Oversigning is not the reason bottom-feeders like Purdue & Northwestern aren't good. They simply don't sign the same caliber of talent as the 3rd tier SEC teams (though ironically Purdue turns out a good chunk of pros out of nowhere).

I would suggest that a school like PSU (which dominates the NE and gets enough from the midwest) would be a more consistent force if it could jettison the dead weight.

 

[Gatorubet]

Riiiight, because that's a terrific comparison. Big East teams definitely don't go dumpster diving in comparison to the recruits that B10 or SEC powers land.

How about we look at Georgia, who signs elite talent too but does not engage in the blatant oversigning that LSU, Bama, Arkansas, Ole Miss and others partake in annually?

That seems like a lot better correlation than trying yet again to erect this strawman who is a dual threat, you can knock him down easily and he scares off any lengthy stay in the realm of this topic.

I understand.

You want to keep hold of your belief of a correlation between oversigning and competitive success when it comes to the SEC, even if there is little or no statistical correlation between oversigning and competitive advantage between conferences - and little or no statistical correlation between oversigning and competitive advantage to programs within conferences.

 

[Gatorubet]

And there's the scoreboard smack. Nice.

Which was in response to a statement about "the self-affirming overexposure of the conference..."

Try to keep up.

 

[jwinslow]

But I have seen very little break down of what the oversigning numbers actually represents when all is said and done, after looking at early departures for the pros, and academic dis-qualifiers, etc. So forgive me for not just admitting that our success is only due to our cheating and improper benefits without a greater body of evidence as to just how that is a dead lock fact.

I don't mind you asking for evidence. I do mind absurd strawmen like claiming it falls apart because the Big East's totals don't equal greatness.

http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2011/01/09/oversigning-cup-update-calling-for-help/

Here is pretty obvious data that yet again Bama & LSU are signing way more recruits than they have room to place. Bama has done it for three years now, actually, and I'm sure Saban will stir up some righteous indignation that anyone would question him on signing day about the subject.

 

[jwinslow]

I understand.

You want to keep hold of your belief of a correlation between oversigning and competitive success when it comes to the SEC, even if there is little or no statistical correlation between oversigning and competitive advantage between conferences - and little or no statistical correlation between oversigning and competitive advantage to programs within conferences.

Come again? Does Georgia not also sign elite talent, yet find themselves mired in mediocrity while LSU, Bama & Florida rule the conference?

But beyond that, it's common sense. If you can sign twenty extra players than the opposition, that gives you twenty extra chances to strike gold, particularly when half of those scholarships are coming from dead weight that transferred, was expelled or got hurt.

That's twenty more chances for an SEC team to sign or develop the next all-american, or twenty more chances for a borderline student but great talent like Noel Devine to just make it through admissions.

Arguing otherwise, and doing so by bringing up the big east as a rebuttal (when they sign lousy recruits no matter the total), is pretty frustrating and hurts your credibility.

I accept skepticism or rebuttals. I don't accept sleight of hand like the big east thing.

 

[osugrad21]

note, I'm not really arguing with you as much as using it as a sounding board

Not at all...in fact, you are continuing the exact same path of logic I would follow if I wanted to keep this argument in the morality stratosphere...

My only difference is, I know college football is not an exercise in morality...at least not everywhere.

tOSU is guilty of helping kids find the door...not as blatant as some of the noted programs, but still guilty.

This oversigning debate just seems like a convenient crutch right now.

5 in a row.

If we are complaining about the playing field not being level, what separates us from TCU and Boise and the Lil Sisters?

 

[jwinslow]

My only difference is, I know college football is not an exercise in morality...at least not everywhere.

tOSU is guilty of helping kids find the door...not as blatant as some of the noted programs, but still guilty.

Certainly, but the cases are fairly isolated, and certainly not in annual droves

This oversigning debate just seems like a convenient crutch right now.

5 in a row.

The topic became a popular one because of Ole Miss, which doesn't really represent hard feelings in my book, any more than Vanderbilt can get my goat while trolling here.

I get what you're saying, but I think we'd still be bashing it if OSU had dominated the SEC. We might just say that's the reason the rest of the conference is better

 

[osugrad21]

Certainly, but the cases are fairly isolated, and certainly not in annual droves

True...but...like Gator said, we are cherrypicking a few...

The topic became a popular one because of Ole Miss, which doesn't really represent hard feelings in my book, any more than Vanderbilt can get my goat while trolling here.

...but we also banged on Mason's Minny that took anyone with a 4.4 and a pulse.

I get what you're saying, but I think we'd still be bashing it if OSU had dominated the SEC. We might just say that's the reason the rest of the conference is better

Possibly...or then again we could be the ones coming across as arrogant bastards. I know I was guilty as hell in '06...I'm still spitting feathers from the crow.

 

[Crow]

Possibly...or then again we could be the ones coming across as arrogant bastards. I know I was guilty as hell in '06...I'm still spitting feathers from the crow.

Wha...

I...

Whe...


Oh, is that the phone I hear? So sorry, must fly!

 

[BigJim]

Gator's excluding the quality side of the equation and solely trying to map the quantity of recruits to production. The hit rate for a Big East level recruit to become elite is nearly twice that of the SEC/B10 type recruits.

 

[MaxBuck]

Max, the only thing I was addressing was the competitive aspect of the equation.

So you're saying that signing 96 players rather than 80 over 4 years does not constitute a substantial competitive advantage? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying. And that seems absurd whether you're spinning it clockwise or counterclockwise (i.e., northern or southern hemisphere).

(Note that I don't claim oversigning is the only, or even necessarily the main, reason for SEC dominance in college football over the past decade. But it sure hasn't hurt.)

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

at my next poker home game, i'm going to play with four hole cards, while the others will play with two. i don't expect that it will make much difference, though after all, i'll end up using only two (just like everyone else) after discarding the other two that add the least to my hand. there will be no competitive advantage.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

at my next poker home game, i'm going to play with four hole cards, while the others will play with two. i don't expect that it will make much difference, though after all, i'll end up using only two (just like everyone else) after discarding the other two that add the least to my hand. there will be no competitive advantage.

Is it wrong that I immediately thought of Red Dead Redemption?