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Game Thread Orange Bowl: tOSU vs Clemson, Jan 3, 8:30 ET, ESPN

Some key mistakes last night that, when considered together, along with a good game from a solid Clemson team, resulted in a loss. Proud of the team and coaches. Wish I could say the same thing about some of the fanbase. I can't believe the ignorant bull[Mark May] I am reading. Being disappointed in the result of last night's game is one thing, personally attacking the players and coaches is another. If that is you, please find another team to root for, because you are an embarassment to the rest of the OSU fanbase. I hear 'Bama is always looking for lunatic fringe fans. Become a Bammer. That way, even if 'Bama loses, you can make yourself feel better by chanting ESSS-EEEE-SEEEEE! while watching LSU, UGA, etc.

I have been reading on here quite a bit and I honestly haven't seen anything that I would call out of line. I haven't seen personal attacks or "they just suck" types of posts. Only observations and opinions. That's the great thing about this board. If you're saying that the players or coaches shouldn't be questioned then I have to disagree. Ohio State players, coaches and fans consider their program to be one of the elite in college football. When they have a performance or performances that are sub par (by their standards) then fans have every right to question what's happening. The last month has been sub par to put it mildly. Fans want to know why and also want to know what's going to be done about it.

Ohio State isn't elite right now. They are one of the top 2 programs in the Big 10, but that isn't saying much. To question why that's happening is perfectly natural, IMO.
 
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Ray Small... and there were others, so let's not be so quick to whitewash JT's tenure in retrospect.

The fact that the drop instantly killed our momentum bugs me as much as everybody else, but Philly was trying to make a play out there to keep the momentum going. He made the mistake of being over-eager and took a risk that didn't pay off. If he would have made that catch and flanked the coverage, we would be calling him a hero right now for making the *exact* same decision.

The key is making the catch - which is what he has had problems doing all season and even last year as well. Sometimes making the best play is by making the most simplistic - HANG ONTO THE BALL. Don't kill momentum. Fact is, he wasn't going to flank coverage, he was blanketed with no where to go, should have called a fair catch and should have looked the ball in.

I don't blame him however, he doesn't have those natural hands and eyes. I put that responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff whom should have identified a player that, while may not return a punt for a TD, would again, field it cleanly. I sure didn't love watching Hartline return punts (save for one against Kent State) but I don't remember holding my breath wondering if he might not catch the thing.
 
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I never limited the scope of my post to Buckeyeplanet. Questioning execution and coaching decisions is fine. That is part of the disappointment involved with losing a very winnable game. Calling a player or coach an idiot (or much worse) in person or on social media is not acceptable. I assume that you are not suggesting that you support such fan behavior.

I am fine with questioning. Hell, I don't even mind blind speculation that much (this covers most, but not all of the criticism). What annoys me is the "sky is falling" "gut the program and start from scratch" mentality. The absurd negativity does nothing to make the program or fanbase look good. High expectations = good. Unrealistic, spoiled whining = embarassing. I live in SEC country and see enough of the latter. I hope to see more of the former from OSU fans and for the most part I do.
 
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I never limited the scope of my post to Buckeyeplanet. Questioning execution and coaching decisions is fine. That is part of the disappointment involved with losing a very winnable game. Calling a player or coach an idiot (or much worse) in person or on social media is not acceptable. I assume that you are not suggesting that you support such fan behavior.

I am fine with questioning. Hell, I don't even mind blind speculation that much (this covers most, but not all of the criticism). What annoys me is the "sky is falling" "gut the program and start from scratch" mentality. The absurd negativity does nothing to make the program or fanbase look good. High expectations = good. Unrealistic, spoiled whining = embarassing. I live in SEC country and see enough of the latter. I hope to see more of the former from OSU fans and for the most part I do.

Bingo.
 
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... But in the end, your QB has to make plays in critical situations and our guy didn't. His confidence level took a hit the last fourth of the year for some reason. Freakin Conner Cook and OU's McKnight developed it and we see where that took them.

I don't know what is going on with Brax. Eye on the NFL? His comments about him not being happy about how much he had to run the ball might indicate that he and Herman still have a strained relationship. Whatever it is, they need to resolve it or someone needs to move on.
At some point around the time of the change / shift / bridge from Zwick to Troy Smith, we got bitten by the bug of wanting to have an athlete at QB, and we haven't gotten over it since.

It's a high-risk high-reward thing. I don't know if it's more frustrating to watch a guy like Boeckman just not be able to shift it into the next gear or watching a freakish athlete like Pryor or Miller not be able to develop some consistency. Wanting a guy like a Vince Young or a Mike Vick can turbocharge an offense (or even an entire prograrm) for a generation, but what about the Connor Cooks, Drew Stantons, Jeff Smokers, John Stoccos, Curtis Painters, or [fill-in whatever 2/3* game-manager lunch-pail no glitz QB] of the world? Can the offensive philosophy out there that says you can succeed year-after-year with a game manager at QB and skill players at other positions work at Ohio State? I'm not trying to get pulled into a recruiting ranking vs team ranking debate. I'm just asking if it's possible for Ohio State football to succeed without a glitzy-QB/athlete.
 
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At some point around the time of the change / shift / bridge from Zwick to Troy Smith, we got bitten by the bug of wanting to have an athlete at QB, and we haven't gotten over it since.

It's a high-risk high-reward thing. I don't know if it's more frustrating to watch a guy like Boeckman just not be able to shift it into the next gear or watching a freakish athlete like Pryor or Miller not be able to develop some consistency. Wanting a guy like a Vince Young or a Mike Vick can turbocharge an offense (or even an entire prograrm) for a generation, but what about the Connor Cooks, Drew Stantons, Jeff Smokers, John Stoccos, Curtis Painters, or [fill-in whatever 2/3* game-manager lunch-pail no glitz QB] of the world? Can the offensive philosophy out there that says you can succeed year-after-year with a game manager at QB and skill players at other positions work at Ohio State? I'm not trying to get pulled into a recruiting ranking vs team ranking debate. I'm just asking if it's possible for Ohio State football to succeed without a glitzy-QB/athlete.
Alabama has managed to do it. Personally, I like the mobile athlete QB. I wouldn't trade Miller myself, but I also think he needs to return for next season to improve his QB skills. I completely understand your thinking. I actually was hoping that Guiton would come in the last drive because Brax was obviously less than 100%.
 
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At some point around the time of the change / shift / bridge from Zwick to Troy Smith, we got bitten by the bug of wanting to have an athlete at QB, and we haven't gotten over it since.

It's a high-risk high-reward thing. I don't know if it's more frustrating to watch a guy like Boeckman just not be able to shift it into the next gear or watching a freakish athlete like Pryor or Miller not be able to develop some consistency. Wanting a guy like a Vince Young or a Mike Vick can turbocharge an offense (or even an entire prograrm) for a generation, but what about the Connor Cooks, Drew Stantons, Jeff Smokers, John Stoccos, Curtis Painters, or [fill-in whatever 2/3* game-manager lunch-pail no glitz QB] of the world? Can the offensive philosophy out there that says you can succeed year-after-year with a game manager at QB and skill players at other positions work at Ohio State? I'm not trying to get pulled into a recruiting ranking vs team ranking debate. I'm just asking if it's possible for Ohio State football to succeed without a glitzy-QB/athlete.

How would Urban's spread function without an athlete QB? Even Alex Smith would pull it down and run.
 
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My post-game thoughts on this year's team by position...it's going to be extremely critical but extremely honest:

QB: Braxton has not progressed much at all but Herman has not been much of a help either. Braxton still is extremely indecisive in the pass game...some of that has to do with the receivers not getting much separation and Herman completely abandoning the intermediate passing game. The other part of that is Braxton not checking down quick enough. His pocket presence is extremely lackluster and he frequently runs right into the blitz and much of that can be attributed to not seeing the blitz coming and adjusting, even when it is obvious. At this point, he is still an athlete playing QB, which would be ok if he could actually run the zone read...it really isn't hard to read the DE/OLB on the keep/give. Shit, Andy Dalton did it to precision with the Bengals last week despite never running it before. And I KNOW it is in the playbook, Kenny G runs it extremely well. To be completely honest, I wish Kenny G was the one coming back next year. I will take a cerebral QB that is consistent and has above average athleticism over a QB that has an incredible highlight real but no consistency.

RB: Not much to say here, Hyde is a stud and Dontre is a great athlete that will get better with some time in the weight room. However, I still think he is primarily a slot guy who occasionally gets some carries and EzE takes over at RB. We'll be special here next year if the OL develops.

WR: Really good blockers and they improved as a unit, but the talent is not really there. I give Zach Smith alot of credit here and the effort was certainly there. I think infusing Corey Smith, Jalin Marshall, Michael Thomas, James Clark, Curtis Samuel, Noah Brown, Terry McLaurin, and Johnnie Dixon is really going to make this offense dangerous. Right now, it is basically Braxton or Hyde run, with not much concern about the receivers beating the defense. Add that group to Devin Smith and Evan Spencer, and I think we will be improved next year with Smith's tutelage.

TE: I think we have the athletes there and they are great blockers, just still are not utilized as receivers much.

OL: Really great performance all year but not so much against Clemson...really looked lost against their pass rush. Mewhort in particular was whiffing alot, really think he is a RT or G at the next level. As for next year, it will be interesting to see how we develop. Really want to see Warriner stay and help keep things rolling here. My early guess at the starting lineup from left to right is Decker, Baldwin, Boren, Elflein, and Lisle (interesting to see how Underwood, Dodson, and Brown compete, along with the great freshmen OL coming in...I think Knox in particular could get in early). I expect some growing pains next year though, this unit was really fantastic overall.

DL: Best unit on the defense but still needed to be stronger up front. Aside from Bosa, we got pushed around pretty good last night. Spence had a pretty good year and will only be better next year. Diesel was very disappointing after showing such promise in the spring...really wonder if he was playing hurt all year, did not look himself at all. Bennett had a pretty good season but disappeared last night. Can't say I even noticed Hale and don't know if he was starting towards the end of the year. Bosa was our best defensive player imo and maybe the best freshmen I've seen at OSU (right there with Katz, no joke). Marcus is really coming along and played lights out last night...really think he is in store for a big year next year. Next year I want to see Bosa and Spence on the ends, with Marcus coming in quite a bit, then Diesel and Bennett inside with Hill and Carter primarily rotating in. Vrable did a heck of a job with this young group though and deserves all the credit in the world for it.

LB: Yikes...this was the absolute worst group of LBs I have ever seen at Ohio State. Shazier had a great year but I think all the pressure on him to do everything for the defense made him feel the need to fly around and frequently over-pursue the play. Hard to be really critical of Ryan though. Then there is Grant...I was hoping he would turn the corner, but he didn't. Big LB that is not athletic enough to play the perimeter and not cerebral enough to diagnose plays to make up for it. Often gets lost in traffic and doesn't shed blocks. Perry showed a little improvement in this game but I'm not sure he is the answer either. Hopefully Shazier stays and at least one of Mitchell, T. Johnson, McMillan, Booker, Berger, or Hubbard will give us better play next year. I really have zero faith that anyone else on our roster is going to get the job done. There has been more attrition at this position than I can ever remember at any position really and because of that, I think Fickell deserves one more year at the position but there has to be drastic improvement or he is going to be looking through the classifieds.

DB: Double yikes...I've never been more frustrated watching a positional group at Ohio State. This group was tantamount to watching Bollman's offense. I really think alot of the results this year were a result of piss poor coaching. Very often they simply were not put in positions to succeed and when they were, their fundamentals were atrocious. Tackling and getting the hips turned in coverage to play the ball is purely coaching...it never got better. We had a very talented Roby regress in front of our eyes. Two veterans in Barnett and Grant looked lost all the time when they were supposed to be leading. A talented Tyvis Powell was always out of position and succeeded occasionally despite it. It took an entire season to take out Pittsburgh despite awful play throughout his entire career, despite the fact we had a talent like Vonn Bell on our bench. There is a certain point where adjustments needed to be made and an extra emphasis placed on fundamentals, but it never happened. We need to move Coombs to special teams and bring in two REAL coaches in the secondary. The talent there is going to be immense in the future with Bell, Burrows, Apple, Worley, Thompson, Webb, Erick Smith, Lattimore, etc...they need the proper coaching and at least 4 guys from that group will form a dominant force.

- Overall, the defense was just too damn bad to be elite this season. That is why I had zero confidence coming into this game...Clemson had a talented offense that could exploit us perfectly and they did just that. In fact, they could have easily put up 50+ like I anticipated but they out-thought themselves sometimes. The offense had way too much pressure on it to score constantly and they knew if they made any mistake whatsoever, it could likely cost them the game. I really think that compounded our offensive issues in the last two games. If the defense could have simply been average, this would have been a championship team imo.

Moving forward, I think the defense will improve but the question for next year is can we replace our OL and keep up similar production on offense?
 
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Outside of his INT, CJ Barnett had the best spectator seat in the house for this game. Constantly around the ball but never in on the tackle. I thought the Watkins almost TD was hilarious. Watkins was at the 5 and Barnett's just watching the play happen as Watkins is sticking the ball out. It's your last game, it's bad if the ball gets in the end zone. Put a hat in the ring and make some contact.
 
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Outside of his INT, CJ Barnett had the best spectator seat in the house for this game. Constantly around the ball but never in on the tackle. I thought the Watkins almost TD was hilarious. Watkins was at the 5 and Barnett's just watching the play happen as Watkins is sticking the ball out. It's your last game, it's bad if the ball gets in the end zone. Put a hat in the ring and make some contact.
There were multiple screens where Barnett geared down and Watkins exploded through the gap...if he is screaming downhill inside-out, he tattoos Sammy...free tats from Ohio State...too soon?
 
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