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Ohio State or Oregon for the BCS Bowl?

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First of all, I want to tell Steve that he did a great job on his post. In the name of fairness, however, I wanted to bring some argument to the discussion. I feel there are entirely too few objective point-of-views on message boards, and maybe this will add some momentem in that direction for this thread.

I'm not trying to suggest Oregon is a better team than Ohio State or that they deserve the BCS bid, I just want to play devil's advocate.

While your research was excellent, I couldn't help but notice your sampling was based on the Sagarin ratings. This system, not so cooincidentally also has the highest ratings for the Big Ten as a conference. Michigan, with FOUR losses is rated #9 ahead of a 9-1 LSU team. 5-6 Michigan State is #28, four spots ahead of 9-2 Alabama, who just a few weeks ago was undefeated.

This thread title and your opening paragraph suggest that this thread is going to determine which team is more deserving. In actuality, I think the question was posed with an answer in mind. All research was then obtained with the goal of proving that desired result as opposed to coming to an informed conclusion.

While I'm inclined to agree that the Buckeyes are a better team who has played a better schedule, I don't want to shelter this argument under the cloud of objectivity. I'm sure Oregon fans could dig up a few obscure computer systems by which they are superior and quote them as gospel. I'm definately not bashing what you've done, because it was very well researched. I'm just suggesting that, while all us Buckeye fans will eat this up, you've opened a huge door for Oregon fans to question your methods. If this was posted anywhere outside of Ohio, you'd get ripped for homerism.

My argument in Ohio State's favor is that, the BCS operates under a system that utilizes the BCS rating system. Since the Buckeyes are rated above Oregon, we can fairly determine that Ohio State is the more qualified team by their standards, and should get the nod.
 
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OilerBuck said:
I'm sure Oregon fans could dig up a few obscure computer systems by which they are superior and quote them as gospel.
Click to expand...

At least all six BCS computer polls have us ranked as being a better team than Oregon so I feel we are on pretty strong ground. The above quote reminds me of a line from Tommy Boy, "I could take a shit in a box and label it guaranteed".
 
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exhawg said:
At least all six BCS computer polls have us ranked as being a better team than Oregon so I feel we are on pretty strong ground. The above quote reminds me of a line from Tommy Boy, "I could take a shit in a box and label it guaranteed".
Click to expand...

:lol: I never claimed to be a good devils advocate or pot-stirrer, I just figured it was better than posting::tibor: :roll1:

You could put your head up a butchers...:lol:
 
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What pisses me off...is that if Ohio State gets the BCS bowl and Oregon gets left out. Then the whiners will say "How can you take 2 loss Ohio State over Oregon?" and so on...where they really should be asking, "How can you take 2 loss Notre Dame over Oregon." Notre Dame is rated lower in the BCS. They do not have as strong of a resume as Ohio State. Oregon is going to scream that the only reason Ohio State gets it is because of money. Yet...that's the only reason Notre Dame is going to get it. I think that they are going to attack Ohio State more than Notre Dame for getting the BCS at-large...and to me, that's rediculous. Ohio State is the best team that's not going to get a BCS conference tie-in. They lost to #2 and #3 by a total of 10 points...and the rest of their season played like the best team in the country. The question should be Notre Dame or Oregon...not Ohio State or Oregon.
 
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While I agree that Notre Dame is less worthy than Ohio State, my larger point is
that two losses (no matter how noble) are worse than one loss. I do, however,
take the smart point that since the BCS attends to SOS and it does the choosing,
it makes sense to accept that within its narrow conventions Ohio State has a
stronger claim than Oregon. My point is less what the BCS will do than what
it should do.
 
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So we get back to the question of an OSU - ND bowl and I think the answer has to be "only in your fondest dreams." Putting OSU and ND in the Fiesta would make for a terriffic pull for the Fiesta, but it weakens the money pull of at least one other bowl game. OSU or ND against Oregon or Va T in the Fiesta is a money maker. Then the TV folks still get the pull of OSU or ND for another bowl.

There are so many reasons I would love to meet ND, but my sense of how the bowls and TV jerks work tell me it's an impossibility.

I also believe that given the many gifts they receive from TV, ND probably can name their opponent except for the NC game. I don't see them going for us in such a situation when they can take on the Big East Champ or Va T and move up in the polls.
 
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cincibuck said:
I also believe that given the many gifts they receive from TV, ND probably can name their opponent except for the NC game. I don't see them going for us in such a situation when they can take on the Big East Champ or Va T and move up in the polls.
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I don't see it happening this way with the current selection process.

Assuming Texas and USC go to the Rose, this is the sequence of events:

The ACC winner is locked into the Orange
The SEC winner is locked into the Sugar
The Fiesta (because they lost Big-12 Champ Texas to the NC game, picks next - presumably ND, in their own self-interest).

The Orange then picks the opponent of the ACC champ. They are the one that decides whether they want PSU or tOSU. Penn State hasn't been there in 20 years, and if FSU wins the ACC, the JoePa-Bowden matchup is a no-brainer for them. Even if it's VaTech, I believe they pick the 1-loss Penn State team.

Then the Fiesta picks again. Assuming they don't pick the big East Champ, the Sugar Bowl will be stuck with West Virginia or South Florida.

The Fiesta has to decide between tOSU and Oregon to play ND. Easy choice for John Junker. And I don't think ND, if they wanted to 'Duck' us, can convince him to take Oregon over tOSU.

The bowls have the ability to work out a different arrangement, but I don't think that will happen. Each bowl will act in its own self-interest, as they've done in the past.

I'm checking on Arizona hotels today (but I won't be pre-paying). :wink2:
 
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nickofthewoods said:
While I agree that Notre Dame is less worthy than Ohio State, my larger point is
that two losses (no matter how noble) are worse than one loss. I do, however,
take the smart point that since the BCS attends to SOS and it does the choosing,
it makes sense to accept that within its narrow conventions Ohio State has a
stronger claim than Oregon. My point is less what the BCS will do than what
it should do.
Click to expand...
This entire argument is bunk unless you're advocating that both Notre Dame and Ohio State are to be overlooked in favor of Oregon and TCU.

TCU is 10-1 too, who cares that their only loss was to 4-6 SMU by double digits? :roll2: The same argument goes all the way back to the beginnings of the BCS, where teams with better records (Boise St., Fresno St., UTEP, Marshall, TCU, Tulane) have had their opportunities to be snubbed.

Do you realize that if ASU and Stanford lose this weekend (both probable) six of the teams in the Pac-10 will finish with a losing record? Of the four teams that will have winning records, Oregon didn't even play one of them (UCLA). This means that Oregon will have played a grand total of two Pac-10 opponents where the other team finished the season with a winning record, and USC smoked Oregon while Cal took the Ducks to overtime.
 
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Link

ANALYSIS
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Tough choices ahead for Fiesta Bowl

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WILL IT TAKE IRISH, ALIENATE BIG 10?
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[SIZE=-1]By Teddy Greenstein[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1]CHICAGO TRIBUNE[/SIZE]
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<!-- begin body-content -->EAST LANSING, Mich. - The men in the colorful jackets waited out Joe Paterno's post-game news conference Saturday so they could congratulate the venerable coach in person.
Two representatives from the Orange Bowl and one from the Fiesta shook hands with Paterno and chatted with him briefly. There was really no point in trying to maintain a conversation.
With a mob of shouting, rambunctious Penn State fans just a few feet away, it would have been like trying to get a stranger's number at a Metallica concert.
After Paterno left, the crowd began hollering at the man wearing the gold jacket, Fiesta Bowl representative Dave Tilson.
"Give it to Paterno!" shouted one man.
"We put you on the map!" screamed another.
Tilson took it well, smiling as he moved on.
Considering the tough decisions they'll have to make in two weeks, Fiesta Bowl officials had better get used to the heckling. Assuming the bowl loses Big 12 anchor Texas to the Rose Bowl, the Fiesta will have the first and third selections among the eligible Bowl Championship Series teams.
That means Fiesta Bowl President John Junker will risk alienating conference officials and large segments of fans.
"We try to make sensible decisions," Junker said Sunday, "so that reasonable people can look at them and say, 'I understand that.'
"One problem: No one has ever accused college football fans of being reasonable."
And with the first pick ...
As one of the hecklers outside Spartan Stadium alluded to, Penn State and the Fiesta Bowl have made beautiful music together. The Nittany Lions are 6-0 in Tempe, Ariz., and the 1987 matchup between Penn State and Miami still ranks as the most-watched college football game of all time.
So of course the Fiesta would be tempted to take 10-1 Penn State.
But if Notre Dame beats Stanford on Saturday to become eligible for a BCS game, it will be nearly impossible for the Fiesta to pass up the Irish.
Why? Notre Dame is a national team with a national following. And the renaissance of Notre Dame football under Charlie Weis is even more compelling than Paterno's riches-to-rags-to-riches story.
If the Fiesta selects Notre Dame, the Orange could not pass up Penn State.
So that's when the Fiesta would have to make its second decision regarding a Big Ten team. Which team do you pair with Notre Dame: 9-2 Ohio State or 10-1 Oregon?
Though Junker attended Saturday's Alabama-Auburn game, Ohio State and Oregon are the only at-large teams worth discussing -- barring a USC loss to UCLA or a Texas loss in the Big 12 championship game. (Both will be Dec. 3.)
With Miami having been upset by Georgia Tech on Saturday, Virginia Tech is effectively out of the at-large pool. If the Hokies win out, they'll host the Orange Bowl as the Atlantic Coast Conference champ. If they lose again, officials from BCS games would lose interest.
So back to Ohio State ...
When the Fiesta Bowl selected Ohio State as an at-large team two years ago, Junker cited a survey conducted by the state of Arizona that found that more than 30,000 Ohio State graduates live within a day's drive of Phoenix. The Buckeyes beat Kansas State 35-28 and the game drew 73,425, just a few thousand shy of a sellout.
"That's certainly a factor to their benefit, as are other factors," Junker said. "We've been at or near a sellout every year, so the major issue is: Which team is going to bring enthusiastic fans in large numbers, fans who will participate in community activities?"
Ohio State scores well in that one, but here's another factor: The Fiesta Bowl's TV partner, ABC, favors having teams from different regions of the country. And that's where Oregon has a huge advantage over Ohio State.
Oregon last appeared in the 2002 Fiesta, hammering Colorado 38-16 in a game that attracted 74,118 fans and drew a TV rating of 11.3. Ohio State's 2004 victory over Kansas State drew an 8.5 with the Nielsen folks.
The Ducks, who drubbed Oregon State 56-14 on Saturday, have survived several close calls but have lost only once, a 45-13 thrashing by USC.
Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany said Saturday he would "absolutely" lobby for Ohio State, adding, "That's my job."
The conference would receive an additional $4.5 million (for a $22.8 million total) if it gets two teams in the BCS..
<!-- end body-content -->
 
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cincibuck said:
So we get back to the question of an OSU - ND bowl and I think the answer has to be "only in your fondest dreams." Putting OSU and ND in the Fiesta would make for a terriffic pull for the Fiesta, but it weakens the money pull of at least one other bowl game. OSU or ND against Oregon or Va T in the Fiesta is a money maker. Then the TV folks still get the pull of OSU or ND for another bowl.

There are so many reasons I would love to meet ND, but my sense of how the bowls and TV jerks work tell me it's an impossibility.

I also believe that given the many gifts they receive from TV, ND probably can name their opponent except for the NC game. I don't see them going for us in such a situation when they can take on the Big East Champ or Va T and move up in the polls.
Click to expand...

PSU will bring just as many fans and viewer as we will so the Fiesta will either be ND vs PSU or OSU and the Orange will get the other. It seems that you have no clue how the BCS selection works because VT has to play in the Orange bowl due to the ACC tie in. ND's TV deal is with NBC so I'm sure the BCS could give a shit about ND losing tv money for getting beat in a bowl game.


Back to Oregon. I can't understand why they even want to play in a BCS game. Do their fans really think they would have a chance in a BCS game? IMHO there are at least 15 teams that would give the Ducks a beatdown in a bowl game. It seems like it would be better for them to go to a smaller bowl and have a chance to win than get beat in a game that everyone is watching.
 
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Folks, look at what I wrote. I said that one loss is better than two losses,
assuming that both teams in question are playing in roughly comparable
conferences. I didn't say that MAC or Mountain West teams were part of
this discussion. It's frustrating to think that a difference of opinion is
meant with such quick dismissal. I understand the SOS argument well. That
simply isn't what I was discussing. If two teams have the same number of
losses, I think that SOS should be the difference. But I stand by the idea that
wins matter. Why in the world is this seen as such a traitorous position?
 
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nickofthewoods said:
While I agree that Notre Dame is less worthy than Ohio State, my larger point is
that two losses (no matter how noble) are worse than one loss. I do, however,
take the smart point that since the BCS attends to SOS and it does the choosing,
it makes sense to accept that within its narrow conventions Ohio State has a
stronger claim than Oregon. My point is less what the BCS will do than what
it should do.
Click to expand...

nickofthewoods, you need a paradigm shift. :)

One loss is definitely not always better than two losses.
Once again, I will try to reason this out.
If tOSU had played Oregon's schedule, they would certainly have finished no worse than 10-1 (possibly losing to USC)
If Oregon had played tOSU's schedule they would certainly have finished with at least 3 losses, but mor likely at least 4 losses (TX, @PSU, @scUM, and at least one of the either: @Minny or MSU)
Also bear in mind that they got destroyed by USC - they were not competitive. They barely beat Fresno St, who is a pretty good team, but would not be that competitive in the Big 10.
Like Hawg said earlier, your kind of reasoning (which unfortunatley many idiots in the media share) leads to teams scheduling cupcakes and building up early wins - much like Minny and MSU do every year. The only difference is that by being in the Pac 10, Oregon also gets to play patsies throughout the conference season. You see every year what happens to Minny and MSu when they get into the Big 10 season, they end up with .500 or lower conference records almost every time. If Oregon was in the Big 10 or SEC, this is exactly what would be happening to them. They need to recognize that since they are in a weak conference, they need to schedule some strong OOC teams to make up for it in the eyes of the BCS (like when they played scUM in '03) rather than hide behind a MEANINGLESS 10-1 record.

I mean think about it - hypothetically, the 108th best team in the coutry could schedule USC plus the 109th through 118th best teams, go 10-1, claim their only loss was to #1 USC, and make the same argument you make for Oregon.
 
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