OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[lvbuckeye]

forgive me because i'm a few pages behind, but regarding the duality of the Messiah, how can it possibly be a theory? He's referred to as both the Lion and the Lamb. His dual nature is implicit: Suffering Servant the first time around, Conquering King in the Second Coming.

 

[lvbuckeye]

1) The Messianic prophesies concern one person. There is no mention of death and resurrection.

Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15...

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

I need to respond by saying Thank God, your avatar bet has expired.

Also a Messianic Jew is a just a Jewish believer in the Jesus Christ who act more like first centuary Jews than modern denominations (not saying Good or bad), I think.

BGrad is not saying he's a part of the tribe of Manasseh as you seem to be referring too.

 

[muffler dragon]

could it be that you are merely a descendant of Israel who has been called back to the fold?

IMHO, "Messianic Jew" is a misnomer. there were ten other tribes...

Typically, Messianic "Jews" are actually Gentiles that have adopted Jewish traditions and festivals. There are a small percentage who are halachically Jewish though.

 

[muffler dragon]

forgive me because i'm a few pages behind, but regarding the duality of the Messiah, how can it possibly be a theory?

If theory was a word that you don't like; then I can think of a few others. Just let me know if I need to re-state.

He's referred to as both the Lion and the Lamb. His dual nature is implicit: Suffering Servant the first time around, Conquering King in the Second Coming.

I was referring to the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) which doesn't refer to the Messiah in said fashion.

 

[buckeyegrad]

could it be that you are merely a descendant of Israel who has been called back to the fold?

IMHO, "Messianic Jew" is a misnomer. there were ten other tribes...

Because Jesus was from the tribe of Judah and it is through him that former Gentiles who become Christians are grafted into Israel, I believe that we are specifically grafted into the tribe of Judah, hence the title of Jew works from my perspective. Furthermore, my brother-in-law, who is the Asst. Rabbi at the congregation where I worship has told me that in the Old Testament times, those who converted to the worship of the Israelites and became members accounted among the nation were always added to the tribe of Judah. I've never verified his information, but he isn't the kind of guy to just make things up, so he must have a source. There is also the example of Caleb, who was not an Israelite, but was obviously named of the tribe of Judah as he was one of the 12 spies sent to the Promised Land. (Think about the significance that the only two to enter into the Promised Land amongst the Israelites who left Egypt were Joshua, a born Israelite, and Caleb, an individual who was grafted into Israel).

In addition, does not Paul say all Christians are spiritual Jews in Romans 2?

Finally, BuckeyeScott is correct in that we take the Jewish title in our name because we are trying to emphasize the Jewish roots of Christianity and practice it as expressed by those Jews who came to Jesus in the first century, but who did not create obstacles for Gentile converts. In other words, we are trying to practice Christianity as we believe Peter, James, John, and even Paul did (and how we believe they meant formal Gentile converts to do so after being exposed to the Jewish Scriptures--this may need more of an explanation). In practical terms, this primairly means keeping the original Sabbath, celebrating Jesus through the Feasts in Leviticus 23, and keeping (not requiring) Torah instructions like kosher. It also causes us to reject replacement theology, dispensational theology, or any theology that says the Law is irrelevant to the follower of Christ.

 

[muffler dragon]

Isaiah 53,

Isaiah 53 is a very involved discussion. If you want to go into it at some time; then that's fine. But it's a very hearty consideration.

Jewish tradition holds that the Servant is Israel.

Psalm 22,

Psalm 22 isn't a messianic passage. It's about King David.

Hosea 6:2,

Hosea 6:2 is also not a messianic passage.

Psalms 16:10,

Psalm 16
10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.

This is also a Psalm of David; not a messianic passage.

(Psalm) 49:15...

15. Like sheep, they are destined to the grave; death will devour them, and the upright will rule over them in the morning, and their form will outlast the grave as his dwelling place.


The above is not a messianic passage either.

Now, lv, I realize that you could reference the 300+ supposed prophesies of Jesus and we could go through them one by one. If you want to; then that's your prerogative. This is where I stand: eisegesis allows one to read into a text anything that one wants to. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct. Therefore, if you want to eisegise Jesus into the Jewish Bible; then by all means, do what your faith dictates. I can respect that. My only point is that don't expect it to be accepted without investigation and so on. I know you're not one who spoon feeds spam. I just wanted to let you know that I respect disagreeing beliefs, and I didn't want you to feel compelled to throw out a tremendous number of passages that you feel support your POV. I'll gladly investigate any of them one by one if you're so moved though.

 

[muffler dragon]

Because Jesus was from the tribe of Judah and it is through him that former Gentiles who become Christians are grafted into Israel, I believe that we are specifically grafted into the tribe of Judah, hence the title of Jew works from my perspective.

Which I'm sure you're aware has no halachic basis.

Furthermore, my brother-in-law, who is the Asst. Rabbi at the congregation where I worship has told me that in the Old Testament times, those who converted to the worship of the Israelites and became members accounted among the nation were always added to the tribe of Judah. I've never verified his information, but he isn't the kind of guy to just make things up, so he must have a source.

And he would be wrong. Converts do not have a tribal affiliation.

There is also the example of Caleb, who was not an Israelite, but was obviously named of the tribe of Judah as he was one of the 12 spies sent to the Promised Land. (Think about the significance that the only two to enter into the Promised Land amongst the Israelites who left Egypt were Joshua, a born Israelite, and Caleb, an individual who was grafted into Israel).

I don't know where you get the idea that Caleb wasn't a Jew by birth.

Edit:

I did some searching and found out the following an acquaintance of mine. It seems to sum it up rather well:

Caleb is clearly identified as the biological son of Yefuneh. He is called "the Kenizzite" because Othniel was his stepbrother.

Quote:Numbers 13:6 From the tribe of Judah, Caleb son of Yefuneh.

So clearly Torah says Caleb was the son of Yefuneh who was of the tribe of Judah. This is repeated in Joshua:

Quote:Joshua 15:13. And to Caleb the son of Yefuneh he gave a part among the children of Judah. . .17. And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb. . .

Numbers 13:6 Caleb is the SON (biological) of Yefuneh.

Joshua 15:13 Caleb is the SON (biological) of Yefuneh.

Joshua 15:17 His (half) brother Othniel was the son of Kenaz.

Since Caleb can't have two daddies and he is identified as the son of Yefuneh of the tribe of Judah then ipso facto his mother married Kenaz after his father died (or divorced her) giving him a half brother and identifying to some extent with his step-father.

 

[buckeyegrad]

Which I'm sure you're aware has no halachic basis.

You mentioned eisogetic interpretations to lv; from my perspective most of the halachic interpretation are such, so it doesn't matter. The interpretations given by the rabbis who wrote the New Testament are the ones I follow, not those who met at Yavne or those who followed in their tradition. My question to you is why do you place the one above the other?

And he would be wrong. Converts do not have a tribal affiliation.

Source? I admitted I don't have one other than my more educated brother-in-law in these areas. Do you have one to counter what he says? (And as a note: I'm talking about pre-Babylonian times).

I don't know where you get the idea that Caleb wasn't a Jew by birth. His father was a proselyte, which would make him a Jew (presuming his mother was Jewish).

A) We don't know if his mother was Jewish or not. B) The mother having to be Jewish does not come from the Tanakh, that was added later by the rabbis. C) No where in the Tanakh does it say that Jephunneh was a proselyte, it only says he was a Kenezite. So, it appears from the Tanakh that Caleb was not born Jewish, but still counted among the tribe of Judah.

 

[muffler dragon]

You mentioned eisogetic interpretations to lv; from my perspective most of the halachic interpretation are such, so it doesn't matter.

And that is a contention that you would have to substantiate. Furthermore, I'm not talking about halacha. I'm talking about reading Jesus back into the text. There is a vast difference between those two things. The former discusses things that have taken place since the Torah was given; whereas, the latter will try to fit a person into a verse/passage regardless of the context.

The interpretations given by the rabbis who wrote the New Testament are the ones I follow, not those who met at Yavne or those who followed in their tradition.

You're more than entitled to this belief.

My question to you is why do you place the one above the other?

You're more than welcome to address this question back to the myriad of posts I have presented thus far as to why I feel that Jesus was a failure as the Jewish Messiah. If you're asking in a more circumspect manner regarding why I tend to believe the Jewish Sages throughout time; then that's even easier - I believe they were given this authority from Moses and G-d.

Source? I admitted I don't have one other than my more educated brother-in-law in these areas. Do you have one to counter what he says? (And as a note: I'm talking about pre-Babylonian times).

I tell you what. When you present the source that your brother-in-law uses; then I'll present substantiation for the halachic view. Deal?

The problematic thing is that your brother-in-law will have to rely on the very text that he doesn't believe has authority: Talmud. I believe this would be the same thing for you.

A) We don't know if his mother was Jewish or not. B) The mother having to be Jewish does not come from the Tanakh, that was added later by the rabbis. C) No where in the Tanakh does it say that Jephunneh was a proselyte, it only says he was a Kenezite. So, it appears from the Tanakh that Caleb was not born Jewish, but still counted among the tribe of Judah.

My edit provides an answer to this part of your post. I shall re-post it here:

Caleb is clearly identified as the biological son of Yefuneh. He is called "the Kenizzite" because Othniel was his stepbrother.

Quote:Numbers 13:6 From the tribe of Judah, Caleb son of Yefuneh.

So clearly Torah says Caleb was the son of Yefuneh who was of the tribe of Judah. This is repeated in Joshua:

Quote:Joshua 15:13. And to Caleb the son of Yefuneh he gave a part among the children of Judah. . .17. And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb. . .

Numbers 13:6 Caleb is the SON (biological) of Yefuneh.

Joshua 15:13 Caleb is the SON (biological) of Yefuneh.

Joshua 15:17 His (half) brother Othniel was the son of Kenaz.

Since Caleb can't have two daddies and he is identified as the son of Yefuneh of the tribe of Judah then ipso facto his mother married Kenaz after his father died (or divorced her) giving him a half brother and identifying to some extent with his step-father.

 

[buckeyegrad]

Caleb is clearly identified as the biological son of Yefuneh. He is called "the Kenizzite" because Othniel was his stepbrother.

No one is arguing whether Yefuneh was his biological dad. Only what was Yefuneh, who Torah only describes as a Kenizzite.

Quote:Numbers 13:6 From the tribe of Judah, Caleb son of Yefuneh.

So clearly Torah says Caleb was the son of Yefuneh who was of the tribe of Judah.

No, it says Caleb came from the tribe of Judah. It does not say Yefuneh did. As is clarified in Numbers 32:12

Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.

This is repeated in Joshua:

Quote:Joshua 15:13. And to Caleb the son of Yefuneh he gave a part among the children of Judah. . .17. And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb. . .

I thought Kenaz was Caleb's brother and Othniel was the son of Kenaz.

Numbers 13:6 Caleb is the SON (biological) of Yefuneh.

Joshua 15:13 Caleb is the SON (biological) of Yefuneh.

Not the argument at hand.

Joshua 15:17 His (half) brother Othniel was the son of Kenaz.

I will have to check the Hebrew here as several translations I have checked reads as though Kenaz is the brother, not Othniel.

Since Caleb can't have two daddies and he is identified as the son of Yefuneh of the tribe of Judah then ipso facto his mother married Kenaz after his father died (or divorced her) giving him a half brother and identifying to some extent with his step-father.

Why would an Israelite identify with a goyim, the same people they considered to be unclean and "dogs", which by the way is the meaning of Caleb's name.

 

[muffler dragon]

I thought Kenaz was Caleb's brother and Othniel was the son of Kenaz.

Here's the passage from the Jewish Bible:

Joshua 15
13. And to Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a part among the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the Lord to Joshua, even the city of Arba the father of the giants, which is Hebron.

14. And Caleb drove out of there the three sons of the giant: Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai, the children of the giant.

15. And he went up from there to the inhabitants of Debir; and the name of Debir before was Kirjath-sepher.

16. And Caleb said, "He who smites Kirjath-sepher and takes it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter for a wife."

17. And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, took it; and he gave him Achsah his daughter for a wife.

Caleb was the biological son of Jephunneh.
Othniel was the biological son of Kenaz.
Caleb was the step-son of Kenaz.

Why would an Israelite identify with a goyim, the same people they considered to be unclean and "dogs", which by the way is the meaning of Caleb's name.

Also from my acquaintance:

Caleb was the step-son of a Kenizite (check the previous verses quoted). BTW Kenzizite is not only the name of a country / people but it also means "separate" or "set apart."

The Tanach makes it clear his father was of the tribe of Judah. Again reference the quotes.

There is no Gentile derision or anything of the sort. Caleb was a Jew.

 

[AKAK]

Just when I thought this thread was getting boring... it got all judaic and rastafari on me all at once.

Now...

If only we can work in some ganja smoking rabbis up in this motha.


Hmmm.....

(Seriously, I don't mean to offend anyone... this is great stuff, guys)

 

[muffler dragon]

Just when I thought this thread was getting boring... it got all judaic and rastafari on me all at once.

Now...

If only we can work in some ganja smoking rabbis up in this motha.


Hmmm.....

(Seriously, I don't mean to offend anyone... this is great stuff, guys)

LOL!!! No offense taken at all.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Isaiah 53 is a very involved discussion. If you want to go into it at some time; then that's fine. But it's a very hearty consideration.

Jewish tradition holds that the Servant is Israel.

tradition? is tradition the authority now? or the Word?

Psalm 22 isn't a messianic passage. It's about King David.

let's see, v14: "I am poured out like water:" John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water." and all my bones out of joint (typical of crucifixion), v15: my tongue is dried up: John 19:28, Jesus said, "I thirst" and they gave him gall and vinegar to quench his thirst, v16: they pierced my hands and feet, when did that ever happen to King David? John v17: they part my garments among them and cast lots for my vesture: John 19:24.

Hosea 6:2 is also not a messianic passage.

then to what is it referring?

Psalm 16
10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.

This is also a Psalm of David; not a messianic passage.

just because David penned the words does not mean that it refers to David. again, to what is it referring, if not to the resurrection of the Messiah?

15. Like sheep, they are destined to the grave; death will devour them, and the upright will rule over them in the morning, and their form will outlast the grave as his dwelling place.


The above is not a messianic passage either.

i'm not sure what v15 you're referring to. Psalm 16 only has 11 verses. not leaving a soul in the grave seems to be a fairly clear reference to resurrection.

Now, lv, I realize that you could reference the 300+ supposed prophesies of Jesus and we could go through them one by one. If you want to; then that's your prerogative. This is where I stand: eisegesis allows one to read into a text anything that one wants to. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct. Therefore, if you want to eisegise Jesus into the Jewish Bible; then by all means, do what your faith dictates. I can respect that. My only point is that don't expect it to be accepted without investigation and so on. I know you're not one who spoon feeds spam. I just wanted to let you know that I respect disagreeing beliefs, and I didn't want you to feel compelled to throw out a tremendous number of passages that you feel support your POV. I'll gladly investigate any of them one by one if you're so moved though.

i don't feel compelled to throw a tremendous number of passages. i don't feel like wasting my time.