OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Well, there is a position that it is not so much the "gift" involved, as the "sentence". You see, it was the Creator who set up the whole system of death, Hell, Heaven and Salvation. So in their minds, it is not so much the "gift" that is offered, it is the conscious setting up of a system that pushes the Golden Rule, and then sentences you to Hell (essentially treating a life spent living it like used toilet paper if you happen to live that Golden Rule life as a Hindu or Agnostic) if you do not accept the gift.

Put another way, if you are offered a new Lexus or death, it sort of detracts from the gift aspect...and the decision to accept it becomes less free will than self preservation.

That's not what the Bible is saying anyway, and you're missing the reality of the situation that no one lives up to the law as required by God. So everyone has a debt to pay: spiritual death. Now is where the gift comes in. We are only offered the gift after we fail to live holy. Accepting a gift that absovles us from our debt is hardly the same as choosing between a lexus and death. The reality is we all chose death first, then get to realize our mistake and choose life.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

You've made this abundantly clear many times over in these threads, and by now it should go without saying: that's you're opinion. :)

Yeah, I suppose... and not to put too fine a point on it, but... what's the point of Christianity, then? I mean, if the end game is salvation, and you believe you can only get there through Christ, how "christian" is it to do so while the majority of people burn in hell?

 

[BayBuck]

Yeah, I suppose... and not to put too fine a point on it, but... what's the point of Christianity, then? I mean, if the end game is salvation, and you believe you can only get there through Christ, how "christian" is it to do so while the majority of people burn in hell?

We are all ultimately accountable for our own decisions. Are you really suggesting Christians are being selfish or somehow un-Christian by accepting salvation while others refuse it?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

We are all ultimately accountable for our own decisions. Are you really suggesting Christians are being selfish or somehow un-Christian by accepting salvation while others refuse it?

You don't need Christianity to be accountable for your own decisions, so again I ask, what's the point of it?

Yes, that is what I'm suggesting... not so much because I believe it but it's an interesting paradox that I think deserves some attention. Maybe paradox is the wrong word, but at this point I think it is the right word.

 

[BayBuck]

You don't need Christianity to be accountable for your own decisions, so again I ask, what's the point of it?

Yes, that is what I'm suggesting... not so much because I believe it but it's an interesting paradox that I think deserves some attention. Maybe paradox is the wrong word, but at this point I think it is the right word.

All a Christian can do if he cares about the souls of his early brethren is spread the Gospel and give them the opportunity to accept that salvation, hence mission-work and other forms of evangelism. It certainly isn't Christian to force anyone to accept Jesus as their savior, and going to hell is a little too great a charity to expect from Christians for the sake of their forlorn brothers and sisters. There's no paradox in one group of people accepting the salvation that others refuse.

 

[jwinslow]

You don't need Christianity to be accountable for your own decisions, so again I ask, what's the point of it?

You know the point of it, you just reject it in light of something you prefer.

I think you're getting too caught up in the whole gift metaphor here. The point of this particular discussion is that salvation (as opposed to death or eternal punishment) is available through faith, regardless of the sins of one's past. People need to get past the idea of fairness that says "I'm more of a good person than that guy" and realize that the ultimate fairness is in that salvation being equally available to all.

Actual 'fairness' isn't nearly as comfy...

Yep. A "gift" usually has no down side. If you accept it, great. If you don't, then fine too. But if declining a gift means that bad things happen to you, it sort of nullifies the gift concept.

Semantics. Replace 'gift' with 'grace'...

Someone on death row can refuse to accept a pardon and die, too. In reality, it's very unfair to offer that way out to a guilty person. But it's still 'grace' being extended.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

All a Christian can do if he cares about the souls of his early brethren is spread the Gospel and give them the opportunity to accept that salvation, hence mission-work and other forms of evangelism. It certainly isn't Christian to force anyone to accept Jesus as their savior, and going to hell is a little too great a charity to expect from Christians for the sake of their forlorn brothers and sisters. There's no paradox in one group of people accepting the salvation that others refuse.

You hardly seem broken up about it. Sounds like an exclusive club, to me.
As if,
"Believe what I (we) believe, or burn in hell. But, fuck ya.... it's your choice. See ya, gotta go git my party on."

I dont know, man, seems to me fairly narcissistic and uncaring.. although it does make the Religious Right seem more consistent in message. In any case, it hardly seems "christian" to me. Hell, was it not your savior who allegedly gave up his self for the entirety of mankind? And your response to that sacrifice is to pretty much ignore everyone he died to save - saying "Well, it's their choice. Not my problem? " I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I think the question is a little more deep than you're giving credit for.

True, you cannot force anyone to be Christian... further true is that many foks... jews, muslims, and so on, would be quite put out if you tried to do so... hell, you might go to war with them over it. In either case, shouldn't they be trying to convert you? I mean, to them, you're the one who "doesn't get it" aren't you?

I suppose your position would be easier to grasp if there was only one alternative to non-belief... that of Christianity. But... that's not the case... now.. does this mean that God isn't bright enough to give out clear alternatives? Is he a prankster who is playing some kind of shell game with the souls of us humans?

 

[jwinslow]

You still seem to be operating from the perspective that humans deserve salvation... I've seen too much of humanity to buy that. You yourself said people don't usually act like good people on their own.

You hardly seem broken up about it. Sounds like an exclusive club, to me.
As if,
"Believe what I (we) believe, or burn in hell. But, fuck ya.... it's your choice. See ya, gotta go git my party on."

wow.

In any case, it hardly seems "christian" to me.

How's that? And how would a 'christian' offer of grace look?

Hell, was it not your savior who allegedly gave up his self for the entirety of mankind?

Now you're intentionally misrepresenting scripture, or twisting the meaning of words to make it self-defeating? I know you're more familiar with the bible than that.

True, you cannot force anyone to be Christian... further true is that many foks... jews, muslims, and so on, would be quite put out if you tried to do so... hell, you might go to war with them over it. In either case, shouldn't they be trying to convert you? I mean, to them, you're the one who "doesn't get it" aren't you?

I suppose your position would be easier to grasp if there was only one alternative to non-belief... that of Christianity. But... that's not the case... now.. does this mean that God isn't bright enough to give out clear alternatives? Is he a prankster who is playing some kind of shell game with the souls of us humans?

You're not communicating very clearly here, imo.

 

[BayBuck]

You hardly seem broken up about it. Sounds like an exclusive club, to me.
As if,
"Believe what I (we) believe, or burn in hell. But, fuck ya.... it's your choice. See ya, gotta go git my party on."

I dont know, man, seems to me fairly narcissistic and uncaring.. although it does make the Religious Right seem more consistent in message. In any case, it hardly seems "christian" to me. Hell, was it not your savior who allegedly gave up his self for the entirety of mankind? And your response to that sacrifice is to pretty much ignore everyone he died to save - saying "Well, it's their choice. Not my problem? " I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I think the question is a little more deep than you're giving credit for.

True, you cannot force anyone to be Christian... further true is that many foks... jews, muslims, and so on, would be quite put out if you tried to do so... hell, you might go to war with them over it. In either case, shouldn't they be trying to convert you? I mean, to them, you're the one who "doesn't get it" aren't you?

I suppose your position would be easier to grasp if there was only one alternative to non-belief... that of Christianity. But... that's not the case... now.. does this mean that God isn't bright enough to give out clear alternatives? Is he a prankster who is playing some kind of shell game with the souls of us humans?

Hey, I'm not sitting here saying with absolute certainty that my way is the one true way, just explaining the rules according to my own belief system (which yes, does come from a book and not from my own mind as I stare into the vast night sky). If the rules as stated seem harsh, that's because they certainly are, but I suggest you take your frustration with the unfairness of it all up with the man upstairs, not with people who believe differently from you.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

You still seem to be operating from the perspective that humans deserve salvation... I've seen too much of humanity to buy that. You yourself said people don't usually act like good people on their own.

Hmmm.... I don't know how people acting like idiots transaltes in to "don't deserve salvation" in fact, I can't think of any time I've argued that... and if I ever had, I was either misunderstood or mistaken.

wow.

Lighten up.

How's that? And how would a 'christian' offer of grace look?

It's like obscentity, I know it when I see it. Regardless, round up 10 different Christians, and you'll see 10 different answers. Even as a group, you're not united. Hardly a strong sell.

Now you're intentionally misrepresenting scripture, or twisting the meaning of words to make it self-defeating? I know you're more familiar with the bible than that.

True I'm offering it for a larger point, but the fact remains.. you either give your all to be as please to God as you can (read: be as much like Chirst as you can) or you're singing a line of bullshit. If christians acted more like their Christ, the world would surely be a better place. But... people don't even give a half assed effort to act Christ like... If you burn in hell... well, screw it.. not my problem... we all are accountable for our own decisions. Suppose your Christ said "Well, Dad, I dont want to die for their sins. They're accountable for their own actinos." You think I'm being intentionally obtuse, but I think you're missing the point.

You're not communicating very clearly here, imo.

Happens. Plus, I was cut short by someone who came in to my office unannounced... The main point was, with so many different salavations to choose from (Judiasm, Hindism, Islam, Buddhism....) what makes Christianity so special? And who is the God that would offer man these ideas only to eternally punish he who chooses the wrong faith? Sadistic.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Hey, I'm not sitting here saying with absolute certainty that my way is the one true way, just explaining the rules according to my own belief system (which yes, does come from a book and not from my own mind as I stare into the vast night sky). If the rules as stated seem harsh, that's because they certainly are, but I suggest you take your frustration with the unfairness of it all up with the man upstairs, not with people who believe differently from you.

Why would I take my frustration with your belief system (which, I don't have) up with God? A little holier than thou there, maybe? You open by suggesting you're possibly wrong, and yet fall back in to "But, I know I'm really right" mode a little quick.

I'm just asking a question, looking for a debate... not trying to belittle your faith. If you're pissed at me (and making comments like "...from my own mind as I stare into the vast night sky...." leads me to believe you are) I'm sorry for being so cavalier in my speech. For what its worth, I hold no ill will towards you regarding your backhanded remarks about staring at the night sky. You can paint me however you like. I don't much worry about it.

 

[BayBuck]

It's like obscentity, I know it when I see it.

This comment, and the rest of your self-enlightened theories on religion, comes from the guy who's calling Christians narcissistic? Come on now, BKB, of course no organized religious belief is going to hold up if your very subjective mindset is the end-all be-all.

But... people don't even give a half assed effort to act Christ like... If you burn in hell... well, screw it.. not my problem... we all are accountable for our own decisions.

My saying the latter part of that straw-quote does not include or even imply the former. Don't assume that just because I (or other Christians) will allow others to refuse Christian salvation--while accepting it for myself--means I'm happy they're going to hell. But that is a reality of most Christian belief, and where your Christ analogy goes wrong is that we are not perfect beings who actually could sacrifice ourselves for their salvation.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

This comment, and the rest of your self-enlightened theories on religion, comes from the guy who's calling Christians narcissistic? Come on now, BKB, of course no organized religious belief is going to hold up if your very subjective mindset is the end-all be-all.

Sorry my decision to take religion seriously enough to devote myself to it troubles you so much. But, whatever..... I'm not interested in a a pissing match with you, nor will I defend myself from you're attempts to paint me as wacko.

My saying the latter part of that straw-quote does not include or even imply the former. Don't assume that just because I (or other Christians) will allow others to refuse Christian salvation--while accepting it for myself--means I'm happy they're going to hell. But that is a reality of most Christian belief, and where your Christ analogy goes wrong is that we are not perfect beings who actually could sacrifice ourselves for their salvation.

Hey, look... you just approached answering the question.....

So, you're not happy about it...

And... what are you going to do about it?

Your comments about how your not Christ is a cop-out if you ask me. "I don't have to be Christ-like because I'm not perfect" Bull-shit...

 

[BayBuck]

You open by suggesting you're possibly wrong, and yet fall back in to "But, I know I'm really right" mode a little quick.

I do more than suggest I'm possibly wrong, I accept it as a daily reality of having faith in an uncertain world. And if you saw me slip back into "I know I'm really right" mode, you simply misread me (I referred only to the "rules as stated" as "certainly" harsh).

 

[Gatorubet]

That's not what the Bible is saying anyway, and you're missing the reality of the situation that no one lives up to the law as required by God. So everyone has a debt to pay: spiritual death. Now is where the gift comes in. We are only offered the gift after we fail to live holy. Accepting a gift that absolves us from our debt is hardly the same as choosing between a lexus and death. The reality is we all chose death first, then get to realize our mistake and choose life.

I'm just pointing out the obvious problem of a Hindu living the most exemplary life you could imagine, in the most Christ like way, and then rotting in Hell because he failed the choice of "accept me as your God or suffer the consequences - ultimately nothing about your Golden Rule life matters but your acceptance of me..."

You have to get outside of your own mindset to see how we Christians come off to others. That is a valid problem for Missionaries. As I often tell my Paster, "Faith alone is overrated..."