OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[Gatorubet]

We could not disagree more.

Faith and works are two different things. Those of us with strong faith will inherently want to work for the glory of God and for the betterment of the world condition of our fellowman, but saying that somehow "faith contains works" - that is pretty much heretical, I think.

Not to sidetrack this interesting subject, but an ancestor of mine - Anne Hutchinson - in 1637 was tried and convicted (and expelled) by Massachusetts Bay Colony for suggesting that local ministers taught a Covenant of Works rather than a Covenant of Grace. (Her criticism of the treatment of slaves and Indians also got her in trouble. )

So it has been a topic of much interest for centuries. Fortunately, now we don't get tried for our beliefs. Her girlfriend was hung for teaching Quaker theology. So it was not so much "religious freedom" that the Pilgrim fathers wanted, so much as freedom to do it their own way - or else!

 

[buckeyegrad]

Well, Isaiah 50 in context seems to suggest something else.

Isiah 49:26

I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the LORD, am your Savior,
your Redeemer

Isaiah 50:11

But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.


Not so much forgiveness. Also, Proverbs is not saying "forgive" so much as "don't retaliate yourself, let God take vengence" - which is a good idea not to allow an escalation of violence, but that is not so much "forgiveness" as as delayed retribution by God. I mean, if we send bears to slaughter the little kids making fun of a bald guy, that is not so much forgiveness centered. I do not see the concept in the OT in the same way as the NT.

For example:

2 Kings 2:23

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

Forgiveness? Not so much in the Old Testament.

Your examples demonstate exactly what I stated, so I'm not sure why you are saying you have found something that is the opposite. Like I already stated, the turn-the-other-cheek teaching comes directly from the OT and has nothing to do with forgiveness. Rather it has to do with not taking personal vengence, but rather relying on the Lord to carry out His justice. Your use of Isaiah 50 and 2 Kings 2 are perfect examples of this. God is carrying out justice on the enemies of His people. The people are not doing it themselves.

Getting to forgiveness, I promise to get to this eventually--it is more complicated (understanding macro vs. micro relationships as explained in the OT) and will take more time to explain; plus I need to do some research.) Like I said, although Jesus was not teaching this in Matthew 6 where the turn-the-other-cheek teaching occurs, he did teach it elsewhere, such as Matthew 18 and it deserves a response. Hopefully, I will have time by Thursday to respond accordingly.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Not to sidetrack this interesting subject, but an ancestor of mine - Anne Hutchinson - in 1637 was tried and convicted (and expelled) by Massachusetts Bay Colony for suggesting that local ministers taught a Covenant of Works rather than a Covenant of Grace. (Her criticism of the treatment of slaves and Indians also got her in trouble. )

So it has been a topic of much interest for centuries. Fortunately, now we don't get tried for our beliefs. Her girlfriend was hung for teaching Quaker theology. So it was not so much "religious freedom" that the Pilgrim fathers wanted, so much as freedom to do it their own way - or else!

Faith vs Works has often been an issue for the church. Martin Luther wanted to rid the Bible of James because he felt (erroneously) it taught salvation through works. Once again I agree with BGrad on this issue (I know, surprise, surprise). Clearly Believing Jesus is the Holy One of God like the demons did in Luke 4:34 is not enough. There has to be a difference between the faith of demons and saving faith. Maybe another way to put it is Faith manifests in works. That statement doesn't say that works save just that wherever there is faith there is works.

 

[Gatorubet]

Your examples demonstate exactly what I stated, so I'm not sure why you are saying you have found something that is the opposite. Like I already stated, the turn-the-other-cheek teaching comes directly from the OT and has nothing to do with forgiveness. Rather it has to do with not taking personal vengence, but rather relying on the Lord to carry out His justice. Your use of Isaiah 50 and 2 Kings 2 are perfect examples of this. God is carrying out justice on the enemies of His people. The people are not doing it themselves.

Getting to forgiveness, I promise to get to this eventually--it is more complicated (understanding macro vs. micro relationships as explained in the OT) and will take more time to explain; plus I need to do some research.) Like I said, although Jesus was not teaching this in Matthew 6 where the turn-the-other-cheek teaching occurs, he did teach it elsewhere, such as Matthew 18 and it deserves a response. Hopefully, I will have time by Thursday to respond accordingly.

Went back and re-read what I replied to, and you are entirely correct. My bad for not reading it more fully.

 

[Gatorubet]

Faith vs Works has often been an issue for the church. Martin Luther wanted to rid the Bible of James because he felt (erroneously) it taught salvation through works. Once again I agree with BGrad on this issue (I know, surprise, surprise). Clearly Believing Jesus is the Holy One of God like the demons did in Luke 4:34 is not enough. There has to be a difference between the faith of demons and saving faith. Maybe another way to put it is Faith manifests in works. That statement doesn't say that works save just that wherever there is faith there is works.

Which of course involves one of the hardest "sells" in Christianity. If living a life of good, charitable deeds while scrupulously following the Golden Rule (though a non-believer) bars you from Salvation, while the rat bastard, miser, curmudgeon pedophile-thief who sincerely repents and believes on his death bed (after 90 years of dedicated assholeness) does go to Heaven, it makes a lot of people shake their head and decide to become Buddhists.

 

[GoBucks89]

Which of course involves one of the hardest "sells" in Christianity. If living a life of good, charitable deeds while scrupulously following the Golden Rule (though a non-believer) bars you from Salvation, while the rat bastard, miser, curmudgeon pedophile-thief who sincerely repents and believes on his death bed (after 90 years of dedicated assholeness) does go to Heaven, it makes a lot of people shake their head and decide to become Buddhists.

These people you speak of are rejecting a free gift simply because someone they feel to be unworthy is offered the same gift. This is tragic.

 

[Big Papa]

Here's a conversation piece. Retail stores are now selling a new line of Biblical action figures including, Jesus, Moses, David, Samson, Mary, Noah and others. Do you view this as a positive toy for children to help teach them more about Faith and the Bible, or is this sacrilege to create action figures of important individuals from The Bible?

I personally can see it from both points of view, and if my kids wanted them, I think I would get them for them, as long as they used them properly. I wouldn't let them use them to fight it out battle royal style I don't think.

Exciting New Products: Walmart Sanctifies The Toy Aisle With Talking Jesus Action Figures

 

[Gatorubet]

These people you speak of are rejecting a free gift simply because someone they feel to be unworthy is offered the same gift. This is tragic.

Well, there is a position that it is not so much the "gift" involved, as the "sentence". You see, it was the Creator who set up the whole system of death, Hell, Heaven and Salvation. So in their minds, it is not so much the "gift" that is offered, it is the conscious setting up of a system that pushes the Golden Rule, and then sentences you to Hell (essentially treating a life spent living it like used toilet paper if you happen to live that Golden Rule life as a Hindu or Agnostic) if you do not accept the gift.

Put another way, if you are offered a new Lexus or death, it sort of detracts from the gift aspect...and the decision to accept it becomes less free will than self preservation.

 

[BayBuck]

Put another way, if you are offered a new Lexus or death, it sort of detracts from the gift aspect...and the decision to accept it becomes less free will than self preservation.

...but you're still getting a Lexus instead of death. Someone who feels that way about being forced to choose to accept something wonderful rather than something dreadful, needs to just swallow their pride and say thanks for the gift.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Who feels bad about being "forced" to accept something wonderful over something dreadful? Maybe I missed Gator's point, but I thought it was more along the lines of a "fake" choice being set up.

Here, you can have eternal life.... OR....

You could choose to burn in hell....

It is more about controlling behavior through the threat of eternal damnation than it is about accepting the clearly more favorable choice.

Vrbryant observed over on the DaVinci Code thread (which popped up and I was reading again) that it's pretty disturbing that people need to be "told" by a book, or have eternal life gifts waived in front of them, to be good people. I whollheartedly agree.....

Whatever is going on supernaturally, I continue to believe it is in critical respects very much unlike anything the Bible is talking about.

 

[Gatorubet]

...but you're still getting a Lexus instead of death. Someone who feels that way about being forced to choose to accept something wonderful rather than something dreadful, needs to just swallow their pride and say thanks for the gift.

Sorta depends. Some very nice folks don't like Lexus but do like Fords...

 

[BayBuck]

It is more about controlling behavior through the threat of eternal damnation than it is about accepting the clearly more favorable choice.

That pretty much boils down to a difference in semantics if the alternatives are ultimately the same regardless of one's motivation in choosing between them.

 

[BayBuck]

Vrbryant observed over on the DaVinci Code thread (which popped up and I was reading again) that it's pretty disturbing that people need to be "told" by a book, or have eternal life gifts waived in front of them, to be good people. I whollheartedly agree.....

Whatever is going on supernaturally, I continue to believe it is in critical respects very much unlike anything the Bible is talking about.

You've made this abundantly clear many times over in these threads, and by now it should go without saying: that's you're opinion. :)

 

[Gatorubet]

Who feels bad about being "forced" to accept something wonderful over something dreadful? Maybe I missed Gator's point, but I thought it was more along the lines of a "fake" choice being set up.

Here, you can have eternal life.... OR....

You could choose to burn in hell....

It is more about controlling behavior through the threat of eternal damnation than it is about accepting the clearly more favorable choice.

Yep. A "gift" usually has no down side. If you accept it, great. If you don't, then fine too. But if declining a gift means that bad things happen to you, it sort of nullifies the gift concept.

 

[BayBuck]

Yep. A "gift" usually has no down side. If you accept it, great. If you don't, then fine too. But if declining a gift means that bad things happen to you, it sort of nullifies the gift concept.

I think you're getting too caught up in the whole gift metaphor here. The point of this particular discussion is that salvation (as opposed to death or eternal punishment) is available through faith, regardless of the sins of one's past. People need to get past the idea of fairness that says "I'm more of a good person than that guy" and realize that the ultimate fairness is in that salvation being equally available to all.