Notre Dame (football only discussion)

[zincfinger]

Refusal to learn, what a wonderfuly PC term. Not that he isn't able to learn, he just won't for some odd reason. No bruised psyche's or self confidence damaging lingo for 21st century kids. Its funny how lanuage can give you insight into social changes through the years.

"Refusal to learn" would seem to have replaced the phrase "You dumb son of a bitch" they used for kids like him when I was younger.

It was a simpler time[waxes nostalgically] :)

I refuse to bench press 300 lbs.

 

[lvbuckeye]

The line I recently heard from an ND fan who is pretty well-informed on football matters is that the primary issue with the offensive line is Latina has been trying to school all of them in all of the positions. Makes sense to school your linemen in different positions (tackle, guard) if you have established personnel. His point is that is not true. They have two established personnel - TE and Center. Beyond that if they selected their best three guards and Tackles they could, over time, save themselves a lot of the dysfunctional performance ND's line has shown this year.

I think he has a point, in that it is part of the problem. It also tells me that the solution isn't going to present itself very soon for the Irish.

Their game against MSU might be really rough with Saint-Dic et al getting into their backfield at will.

it's a nice excuse, but it's not like the three new starters are all true frosh who have never played a snap of organized football before...

 

[Bleed S & G]

I have been reading the Notre Dame boards and we are missing the point. Notre Dame lost several talented players from last season.

Unlike most college teams who keep the same kids year after year only replacing them as their talents wane, Notre Dame had several of their players leave as soon as they completed their eligibility.

The OL in particular has been ravaged by losses. The average Big Ten team only lost two starters from their OL last season. Notre Dame lost three. You can't recover from something like that in just one year.

Who are the "several" players? They lost the core of their offense, and sure most importantley the o-line. But in all seriousness, when Troy Smith, Ginn, Gonzo, Pittman, and some O-line left OSU.. we can still put up at LEAST a touchdown.

This is where, it's deeper than the talent. The way Stanley left, with seemingly full support of his teammates and now ND not releasing him speaks volumes (IMO) of the situation in South Bend.

OSU has players (and first round talent) leave as soon as they complete their elgibility too. As do schools everywhere, ND is not an exception.

Diffrence is, Weis isn't developing talent. If he was, I would argue they would at least be 1-2 with one of the losses being competitive. What happened to these back-to-back top 8 classes? Our Freshman are seeing the field now, and not waiting 2 or 3 years, and our class isn't rated as highly. So the "need time to develop" argument is bull shit, IMO.

ND is making every excuse they can. Bottom line is, they have been second rate for as long as I can remember (around 94, 95) and had a small resurgence with Charlie coaching Ty's team, and they all lost their mind! This is evident by the extension Chuck recieved after not even a full season.

Combine all this, with the fact the spokesman (Charile) is an arrogant prick. I'll be honest, I never really had a issue with Notre Dame until recently. I thought their fans we're stupid, but c'mon most OSU fans I meet can be equally delusional. When I was out in Tempe, the quote from Charlie was "my one superbowl ring is bigger than all of his (JT) combined." Then Musberger talking about how Charlie wasn't worried about our defense .. this must be the way that he is, and why the players can't wait to get out of south bend, via NFL or bus.

In conclusion, while ND has lost a few solid players for the program.. when do the OSUs and USCs of the world not lose talent? Hell we have a much better argument for losing an entire offesne, and the freshman we brought in are doing just fine. The diffrence is in coaching. Weis' attitude is better suited for the NFL, and IMO he has no buisness being a head coach of a "major" program w/o any other HCing experience.

 

[sandgk]

it's a nice excuse, but it's not like the three new starters are all true frosh who have never played a snap of organized football before...

Well, I can't disagree, as I allowed earlier it seems there is more going on than just a coaching philosophy at odds with team needs. Even if Latina were to take tOSU's approach - 5 best, coach them up, he would be doing so now from scratch - so that is why I feel any solution is a way off from showing any fruit for ND. Plus, there is the lack of nastiness on the line play, indicating something negative for ND about motivation. Finally, there is a reasonable question to be asked (again) about overall talent development - so even if they go best 5, do they have the staff to get the best out of those 5 (or even choose the true best 5)?

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

This is where, it's deeper than the talent. The way Stanley left, with seemingly full support of his teammates and now ND not releasing him speaks volumes (IMO) of the situation in South Bend.

What do you have against Dimitrious Stanley? :p

 

[OCBucksFan]

Normally when I read this board I am impressed by how knowledgeable most posters are. But this thread disappoints.

I have been reading the Notre Dame boards and we are missing the point. Notre Dame lost several talented players from last season.

Unlike most college teams who keep the same kids year after year only replacing them as their talents wane, Notre Dame had several of their players leave as soon as they completed their eligibility.

The OL in particular has been ravaged by losses. The average Big Ten team only lost two starters from their OL last season. Notre Dame lost three. You can't recover from something like that in just one year.

Well that explains it, as long as Weis is still a genius I am happy. I mean I look around at the power schools and I see that none of them lost anything really, LSU and Florida obviously have the same team as well as Michigan, tOSU, USC, Oregon, and the Big 12 Schools, after all, the NFL draft this year was nothing but Notre Dame heisman trophy winning players leaving from thier three years of consecutive national championships.

 

[jwinslow]

The domers blame Ty for awful recruiting, but does anyone know how many decommitments that classless firing cost ND?

Lawrence Wilson alone was a gigantic loss, looking at the ineptitude that is ND's defense over the years. Placing him opposite Abiamiri would have paid big dividends. Brandon Harrison switched to UM & David Nelson to UF.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

I read some of the comments following the Fox Sports article linked a few pages ago, and I can't believe that some domers are still banging the 'Ty's recruits' drum. I can't wait to hear their excuses next year.

For all those NDers that say Charlie was left with NOTHING after Ty's "awful" recruiting, what was Ty left with? Was it not Ty that gave them Quinn, Smardzjia, Walker and McKnight on offense for Weis to work with. He also had Lawrence Wilson at DE, until they fired Ty. How great were Bob Davie's kids when Ty took over. I'd be hard pressed ot believe Ty had more to work with than Charlie.

The domers blame Ty for awful recruiting, but does anyone know how many decommitments that classless firing cost ND?

Lawrence Wilson alone was a gigantic loss, looking at the ineptitude that is ND's defense over the years. Placing him opposite Abiamiri would have paid big dividends. Brandon Harrison switched to UM & David Nelson to UF.

The specific complaint from Domer fans is that, during his last two recruiting classes combined (2003 and 2004), Ty Willingham brought in "only" eight 4-star prospects and one 5-star prospect; during that time, the Domers also signed twenty-one 3-star prospects and seven 2-star prospects (using Rivals rankings).

Well, during those same two years, the 54 non-BCS schools signed a combined sixteen 4-star prospects and one 5-star prospect. Yes, that's a total of one hundred and eight recruiting classes that yielded just seventeen prospects who graded out higher than 3-stars. But Notre Dame has talent issues because of Ty Willingham's two allegedly weak recruiting classes....

To go a bit further, the entire 13-team MAC signed a combined fifteen 3-star prospects and one 4-star prospect...

The entire 8-team Sun Belt Conference signed a combined twenty-one 3-star prospects and two 4-star prospects...

And the entire 9-team WAC signed a combined thirty-one 3-star and two 4-star players.

During 2003 and 2004, the following twelve teams did not sign a single recruit with a ranking of greater than 2-stars: Ball State, Buffalo, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Ohio University, UTEP, Idaho, Louisiana-Monroe, Florida International, Western Kentucky, Army, and Navy. Another thirteen teams signed only one or two recruits with a ranking of greater than 2-stars. Those twenty-five teams signed a combined nineteen 3-star prospects and two 4-star prospects.

In addition, Cincinnati, currently in the Big East, signed only a pair of 3-star recruits during the time in question, and zero 4- or 5-star recruits. Yet the Bearcats were able to win their first three games of the season, including a 34-3 annihilation of Oregon State, a solid PAC-10 program (they beat Southern Cal year, remember? And Dame lost to Southern Cal by twenty points....).

And finally, Boise State, the team that went 13-0 last year including a win in a BCS bowl game (something that Notre Dame has never done, despite the more-or-less automatic bid), had a grand total of four 3-star recruits and forty-two 2-star recruits combined for the classes of 2003 and 2004. The current cream of the WAC, Hawaii, managed to work its way into the top 25 with only seven 3-star prospects and thirty-five 2-star prospects.

And yet Notre Dame is the worst team in college football in 2007?

 

[lvbuckeye]

Reggie Nelson.

 

[Steve19]

The specific complaint from Domer fans is that, during his last two recruiting classes combined (2003 and 2004), Ty Willingham brought in "only" eight 4-star prospects and one 5-star prospect; during that time, the Domers also signed twenty-one 3-star prospects and seven 2-star prospects (using Rivals rankings).

Well, during those same two years, the 54 non-BCS schools signed a combined sixteen 4-star prospects and one 5-star prospect. Yes, that's a total of one hundred and eight recruiting classes that yielded just seventeen prospects who graded out higher than 3-stars. But Notre Dame has talent issues because of Ty Willingham's two allegedly weak recruiting classes....

To go a bit further, the entire 13-team MAC signed a combined fifteen 3-star prospects and one 4-star prospect...

The entire 8-team Sun Belt Conference signed a combined twenty-one 3-star prospects and two 4-star prospects...

And the entire 9-team WAC signed a combined thirty-one 3-star and two 4-star players.

During 2003 and 2004, the following twelve teams did not sign a single recruit with a ranking of greater than 2-stars: Ball State, Buffalo, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Ohio University, UTEP, Idaho, Louisiana-Monroe, Florida International, Western Kentucky, Army, and Navy. Another thirteen teams signed only one or two recruits with a ranking of greater than 2-stars. Those twenty-five teams signed a combined nineteen 3-star prospects and two 4-star prospects.

In addition, Cincinnati, currently in the Big East, signed only a pair of 3-star recruits during the time in question, and zero 4- or 5-star recruits. Yet the Bearcats were able to win their first three games of the season, including a 34-3 annihilation of Oregon State, a solid PAC-10 program (they beat Southern Cal year, remember? And Dame lost to Southern Cal by twenty points....).

And finally, Boise State, the team that went 13-0 last year including a win in a BCS bowl game (something that Notre Dame has never done, despite the more-or-less automatic bid), had a grand total of four 3-star recruits and forty-two 2-star recruits combined for the classes of 2003 and 2004. The current cream of the WAC, Hawaii, managed to work its way into the top 25 with only seven 3-star prospects and thirty-five 2-star prospects.

And yet Notre Dame is the worst team in college football in 2007?

Taking a step back, it is an interesting case study. If you look back through threads on BP, we were repeatedly telling ND Chief and the rest of the Charlie faithful, that Weis was a self-centered man who would destroy talent.

LJB, you have provided objective evidence of just how badly he has.

Contrast this with Jim Tressel's recruiting record and performance.

Great coaches get extraordinary performance out of ordinary people. There's nothing ordinary about Ohio State's recruits, but just compare the classes and you'll see one of two things (or both):

• How badly Notre Dame chose when they chose their current coach
• How wisely Ohio State chose when they chose theirs (thanks, Andy!)

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

...

• How badly Notre Dame chose when they chose their current coach

...

ND, you chose... poorly.

 

[Jaxbuck]

ND, you chose... poorly.

Oh man....are you the bigger geek for posting it or am I the bigger geek for knowing exactly what it meant. :tongue2:

You know the upcoming opponent is weak when we're throwing around Indiana Jones and the last Crusade scene refrences less than 48 hours before kickoff..

 

[lvbuckeye]

Oh man....are you the bigger geek for posting it or am I the bigger geek for knowing exactly what it meant. :tongue2:

You know the upcoming opponent is weak when we're throwing around Indiana Jones and the last Crusade scene refrences less than 48 hours before kickoff..

they're currently filming the next installment of Indiana Jones.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

they're currently filming the next installment of Indiana Jones.

Well, that settles it... American film makers are completley out of ideas.

 

[lvbuckeye]

what, The Directors didn't clue you in?