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- Thread starter BuckeyeInTheBoro
- Start date
Furthermore, if they're gonna ban "Seminoles" of "Illini", what are they gonna do about Miami University? All three are the names of nations (albeit nations that were decimated by genocidal westward expansion) - It's no different than naming your team the Americans or the Brazlians. MIAMI though is the name of the university. If they're gonna ban those nicknames, then shouldn't they ban that university name as well? What kind of clusterfuck would that be? The intent is in the right place I think, but the execution (blanket actions against isolated instances of poor taste, as somebody said) is all wrong.
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DEBuckeye said:
Actually, a lot of the time, if not most of the time, it's non-Indian groups that are bitching.
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nwbuckeye
Senior
The intent is in the right place I think, but the execution is all wrong.[/QUOTE] actually not one single thing in the intent is right. the exact phrasing of the ncaa is Nicknames or mascots deemed "hostile or abusive". this is political correct bullshit. how in gods name do a couple people get together and decide for the whole country what is hostile or abusive. why dont they just cut to the chase and say they dont want schools to use indian mascots. there is absolutely nothing either hostile or abusive about for example the fighting illini mascot name but we are supposed to let a few dipshits decide for 200 million people what can or cant be a mascot.redskins, and drunkin braves WOULD be offensive mascots; braves,warriors,chiefs etc are honorable names and honorable mascots, dont let a few idiots force their views on the rest of the country.most schools have mascots that represent someone or something that they find honorable or noteworthy and it should be up to the school to decide what their mascot can or cant be. if they are going to ban indian mascots for schools then they better damn well ban em for all schools. i.e. there are high schools in my area that have almost exclusively native indian population and i am gonna demand that THEY have their indian mascot banned from the field when they play again our local highschools, after all i dont want my 4 year old running from the stands because she sees that hostile and abusive native american mascot who happens to be portrayed by an honest to goodness native american.
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I get the feeling this is gonna end up in another forum pretty soon...
The phrase "hostile or abusive" is just fine. The error is the thinking that that phrase applies to more than just a few incidences. It shouldn't apply to names like "Illini" or "Seminoles". It shouldn't apply to institutions that use portray others with care and respect. It SHOULD apply to places that make a complete mockery of other cultures and make caricatures of others' traditions.
We're alot closer in opinion on this issue than you think. What I was saying is that the NCAA should reserve the right to ban names and portrayals like "redskins" and "drunken braves" while continuing to allow names like "Illini", etc. where it is done with respect.
To sum up, I think the rule is OK, but it should be enforced with discretion, not universally.
The phrase "hostile or abusive" is just fine. The error is the thinking that that phrase applies to more than just a few incidences. It shouldn't apply to names like "Illini" or "Seminoles". It shouldn't apply to institutions that use portray others with care and respect. It SHOULD apply to places that make a complete mockery of other cultures and make caricatures of others' traditions.
We're alot closer in opinion on this issue than you think. What I was saying is that the NCAA should reserve the right to ban names and portrayals like "redskins" and "drunken braves" while continuing to allow names like "Illini", etc. where it is done with respect.
To sum up, I think the rule is OK, but it should be enforced with discretion, not universally.
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All I can say is, if this carries on to its ultimate conclusion and includes animals, someone is gonna be really sorry that they upset those fighting banana slugs at UC Santa Cruz. Those folks can open all kinds of whoopass if they get pushed too far. :bicker: 
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bigtenbadboy
3rd Rate Lurker
Does anyone know if the Aztec Indians were ever partially located in what is now the United States? I always thought the Aztec tribes we're located in Mexico and Central American countries?
If this is true does San Diego State get a pass on all of this because they are not technically an "American Indian" tribe?
If this is true does San Diego State get a pass on all of this because they are not technically an "American Indian" tribe?
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bucknut74
You Enjoy Myself
list of schools affected by NCAA's decision:
Alcorn St. (Braves)
Central Michigan (Chippewas)
Catawba College (Indians)
FSU (Seminoles)
Midwestern State (Indians)
University of Utah (Utes)
Indiana University- Pennsylvania (Indians)
Carthage College (Redmen)
Bradley University (Braves)
Arkansas State (Indians)
Chowan College (Braves)
University of Illinois ( Illini)
University of Louisiana-Monroe (Indians)
McMurry University (Indians)
Mississippi College (Choctaws)
Newberry College (Indians)
University of North Dakota (Indians)
University of North Dakota (Fighting Sioux)
Southeastern Oklahoma State (Savages)---????
not exactly lighting it up in bowls anyway..
Alcorn St. (Braves)
Central Michigan (Chippewas)
Catawba College (Indians)
FSU (Seminoles)
Midwestern State (Indians)
University of Utah (Utes)
Indiana University- Pennsylvania (Indians)
Carthage College (Redmen)
Bradley University (Braves)
Arkansas State (Indians)
Chowan College (Braves)
University of Illinois ( Illini)
University of Louisiana-Monroe (Indians)
McMurry University (Indians)
Mississippi College (Choctaws)
Newberry College (Indians)
University of North Dakota (Indians)
University of North Dakota (Fighting Sioux)
Southeastern Oklahoma State (Savages)---????
not exactly lighting it up in bowls anyway..
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Misanthrope
Banned
Exactly. Typically it's guilty white liberals who think it's their job to decide who's "offended", and call the rest of us "racists" if we disagree, who push for this type of action. That reminds me, has anyone seen tibor?MililaniBuckeye said:
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ohiobuck94
Buckeye Beach Bum
The NCAA should be looking at itself. It restricts the rights of all student athletes no matter what their nationality is. The kids can't even fart without permission.
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I'd be willing to bet that 99.99% of native Americans are not offended by "mascots" depicting them. Maybe the most famous of all Is the Cleveland Indians "Chief Wahoo." Years ago, when the Tribe (oops, am I allowed to say that) trained in Tucson the most loyal buyers of "Indians" and "Wahoo" merchandise literally were the Native Americans who would come in for practice. Years later, when some do-gooder activist who had nothing better to do convinced a number of native American's that they were being offended when they never realized this for years is when this bullshit started.
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sm00r
Sarcosanct Cogitator
FSU prepares to fight back
TALLAHASSEE - Outrage over a crackdown on American Indian mascots is spreading from Florida State University - home of the Seminoles - to the governor's office, the state Legislature and even Congress.
With stern faces and tough talk, FSU trustees on Wednesday authorized university President T.K. Wetherell to do whatever it takes to appeal a new National Collegiate Athletic Association policy prohibiting schools from displaying "hostile and abusive" American Indian "mascots, nicknames or imagery" during championship events.
That appeal will go through NCAA channels, but Florida State has also enlisted ace Tallahassee lawyer Barry Richard - who represented George W. Bush in Florida's 2000 presidential election recount - for a potential legal challenge.
At an emergency session of FSU's Board of Trustees on Wednesday, school officials indicated they are bracing for a serious fight.
"I just don't think there are thousands of people around the United States going to bed at night concerned that FSU has a relationship with the Seminole Tribe of Florida," said Jim Smith, a trustee and former state attorney general. "But there are tens of thousands of Florida State Seminole supporters going to bed as mad as hell because this situation has been created by the NCAA."
Wetherell provided a hint of the battle to come. When asked whether there could come a time the university might have to change its nickname, he responded, "Only after the United States Supreme Court told us to."
Lining Up Big Guns
The FSU trustees' unanimous vote wasn't the only action on behalf of Florida State on Wednesday:
* Gov. Jeb Bush, who had criticized the NCAA policy this week as an extreme example of political correctness by those who "need to get out more often," weighed in again on the uproar. "It's the combination of a lot of alumni that love their university, number one. And number two, a really stupid decision," Bush said. "The convergence of that has generated a lot of interest."
The governor said his office will "follow the lead of the university."
* Trustees said Wednesday that they had meetings scheduled with state lawmakers who would likely propose FSU-related legislation in an upcoming special session. State Sen. Jim King, R-Jacksonville, and House Speaker Allan Bense, R- Panama City, both high-profile FSU alumni, could not be reached Wednesday. Bush said "apparently, there is a means by which the Legislature can act, and I'm sure they will."
* U.S. Rep. Tom Feeney, R- Oviedo, said he expects judges would find the NCAA's action illegal under the federal Sherman Antitrust Act. But if that doesn't happen, he is prepared to propose changes to the act "to prohibit what the NCAA has done."
The issue transcends sports, said Feeney, who describes himself as a free-speech advocate, particularly as it relates to college campuses. "This is a slippery slope," he said. "If we can't protect free speech on American campuses, then we can't protect it anywhere."
Feeney, who did not attend Florida State, sits on the powerful House Judiciary Committee. He acknowledged the FSU flap would not be one of his committee's priorities, but "you can fight terrorism and fight for constitutionally protected free speech at the same time."
Eighteen schools were deemed by the NCAA to have "hostile or abusive" American Indian mascots, nicknames or imagery. In a letter to Wetherell, NCAA President Myles Brand said schools may appeal the applicability of the policy to their particular situations.
For example, they could make the case that the use of the mascot does not create a hostile or abusive environment. Schools could also seek to modify the policy.
Appeals go first to the NCAA Executive Committee's Subcommittee on Gender and Diversity Issues; rejection there could be appealed to the full executive committee.
Tribe's Endorsement Key
A key to Florida State's appeal to the NCAA and, if necessary, the courts, will be the school's positive relationship with the Seminole Tribe of Florida.
The tribe adopted a resolution in June supporting the school's use of the name.
But the NCAA stated that Seminole tribes in other states, particularly Oklahoma, have objected to the use of the name.
Peter Roby, director of the Center for the Study of Sport in Society at Northeastern University in Boston, is among those who say FSU should drop the Seminole name.
He is not swayed by the argument that the school's relationship with the state's Seminole Indians should be a factor. FSU's nationally televised games reach audiences of American Indians and others outside the state who may be offended.
"It speaks to stereotyping that's been going on in our society for many years," Roby said.
That has not been the common reaction in Florida. On Sun Sports cable television's "Sports Talk Live" this week, the NCAA's Charlotte Westerhaus acknowledged her office "did not expect the kind of reaction that primarily we've gotten from the fan base of Florida State."
The policy would not affect Florida State's high-profile football team, because championship play in that sport is out of the NCAA's jurisdiction.
The Collegiate Licensing Co. does not reveal sales figures for logo merchandise, but says Florida State ranked 11th in the nation in sales in the second half of 2004.
Meanwhile, motorists purchased or renewed 72,055 FSU license tags in 2004, making it the state's sixth-best-selling specialty license plate last year, according to the state Department of Highway Safety & Motor Vehicles.
Gary Haber, Garrett Therolf and Doug Carlson contributed to this report. Jerome R. Stockfisch is a staff reporter for The Tampa Tribune.
TALLAHASSEE - Outrage over a crackdown on American Indian mascots is spreading from Florida State University - home of the Seminoles - to the governor's office, the state Legislature and even Congress.
With stern faces and tough talk, FSU trustees on Wednesday authorized university President T.K. Wetherell to do whatever it takes to appeal a new National Collegiate Athletic Association policy prohibiting schools from displaying "hostile and abusive" American Indian "mascots, nicknames or imagery" during championship events.
That appeal will go through NCAA channels, but Florida State has also enlisted ace Tallahassee lawyer Barry Richard - who represented George W. Bush in Florida's 2000 presidential election recount - for a potential legal challenge.
At an emergency session of FSU's Board of Trustees on Wednesday, school officials indicated they are bracing for a serious fight.
"I just don't think there are thousands of people around the United States going to bed at night concerned that FSU has a relationship with the Seminole Tribe of Florida," said Jim Smith, a trustee and former state attorney general. "But there are tens of thousands of Florida State Seminole supporters going to bed as mad as hell because this situation has been created by the NCAA."
Wetherell provided a hint of the battle to come. When asked whether there could come a time the university might have to change its nickname, he responded, "Only after the United States Supreme Court told us to."
Lining Up Big Guns
The FSU trustees' unanimous vote wasn't the only action on behalf of Florida State on Wednesday:
* Gov. Jeb Bush, who had criticized the NCAA policy this week as an extreme example of political correctness by those who "need to get out more often," weighed in again on the uproar. "It's the combination of a lot of alumni that love their university, number one. And number two, a really stupid decision," Bush said. "The convergence of that has generated a lot of interest."
The governor said his office will "follow the lead of the university."
* Trustees said Wednesday that they had meetings scheduled with state lawmakers who would likely propose FSU-related legislation in an upcoming special session. State Sen. Jim King, R-Jacksonville, and House Speaker Allan Bense, R- Panama City, both high-profile FSU alumni, could not be reached Wednesday. Bush said "apparently, there is a means by which the Legislature can act, and I'm sure they will."
* U.S. Rep. Tom Feeney, R- Oviedo, said he expects judges would find the NCAA's action illegal under the federal Sherman Antitrust Act. But if that doesn't happen, he is prepared to propose changes to the act "to prohibit what the NCAA has done."
The issue transcends sports, said Feeney, who describes himself as a free-speech advocate, particularly as it relates to college campuses. "This is a slippery slope," he said. "If we can't protect free speech on American campuses, then we can't protect it anywhere."
Feeney, who did not attend Florida State, sits on the powerful House Judiciary Committee. He acknowledged the FSU flap would not be one of his committee's priorities, but "you can fight terrorism and fight for constitutionally protected free speech at the same time."
Eighteen schools were deemed by the NCAA to have "hostile or abusive" American Indian mascots, nicknames or imagery. In a letter to Wetherell, NCAA President Myles Brand said schools may appeal the applicability of the policy to their particular situations.
For example, they could make the case that the use of the mascot does not create a hostile or abusive environment. Schools could also seek to modify the policy.
Appeals go first to the NCAA Executive Committee's Subcommittee on Gender and Diversity Issues; rejection there could be appealed to the full executive committee.
Tribe's Endorsement Key
A key to Florida State's appeal to the NCAA and, if necessary, the courts, will be the school's positive relationship with the Seminole Tribe of Florida.
The tribe adopted a resolution in June supporting the school's use of the name.
But the NCAA stated that Seminole tribes in other states, particularly Oklahoma, have objected to the use of the name.
Peter Roby, director of the Center for the Study of Sport in Society at Northeastern University in Boston, is among those who say FSU should drop the Seminole name.
He is not swayed by the argument that the school's relationship with the state's Seminole Indians should be a factor. FSU's nationally televised games reach audiences of American Indians and others outside the state who may be offended.
"It speaks to stereotyping that's been going on in our society for many years," Roby said.
That has not been the common reaction in Florida. On Sun Sports cable television's "Sports Talk Live" this week, the NCAA's Charlotte Westerhaus acknowledged her office "did not expect the kind of reaction that primarily we've gotten from the fan base of Florida State."
The policy would not affect Florida State's high-profile football team, because championship play in that sport is out of the NCAA's jurisdiction.
The Collegiate Licensing Co. does not reveal sales figures for logo merchandise, but says Florida State ranked 11th in the nation in sales in the second half of 2004.
Meanwhile, motorists purchased or renewed 72,055 FSU license tags in 2004, making it the state's sixth-best-selling specialty license plate last year, according to the state Department of Highway Safety & Motor Vehicles.
Gary Haber, Garrett Therolf and Doug Carlson contributed to this report. Jerome R. Stockfisch is a staff reporter for The Tampa Tribune.
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Zurp
I have misplaced my pants.
I've heard that it's about 2-3% of the Native Americans are offended with this. But I don't remember where/when I heard this, or who told me, or where/when that person heard it. But I think you're right - a large majority of any group is rarely offended by teams' mascots, nicknames, etc.WoodyWorshiper said:
And why does the stink being aimed at Native American nicknames? Is the NCAA racist? Here's what the NCAA is saying with this policy: "You can't have any nickname or mascot, etc, that has ANYTHING to do with Native Americans, but feel free to call yourselves the 'Trojans,' the 'Vikings,' the 'Spartans,' the 'Vandals,' the 'Sluts Who Get Pounded By 50 Guys, Daily,' or even the 'Fighting Irish.'"
And how is Illinois (Illini) left off the list? Are they just starting this war today with this one battle, or are they just being stupid and dumb at the same time?
I can see it now: in 30 years, the national championship game will be between the "Red Soup Cans" against the "Miscellaneous Inoffensive Nicknames."
By the way, did anyone hear of the "Fighting Whities," a couple of years ago? Some group of kids out west somewhere (mostly Native Americans, Hispanics, and Black) started an Intramural basketball team and made their shirts say "Fighting Whities." They figured they could make a bunch and sell them online to minorities to piss off white people. But then they found out that a majority of the buyers were white people. So they quit making them, I guess.
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