NCAA punishes USC - Reggie Bush, OJ Mayo, Dwayne Jarrett, Joe McKnight investigation

[Magua]

I don't know how you can't fault PC for any of this. You say that all of these people weren't walking around the program (locker room, practices, etc) and the ones that were were longtime friends from before they stepped foot on campus.

Well, PC needs to tell these players that these "friends" aren't aloud to be a part of team activities because well, they are not on the team.

PC needs to tell Snoop, Will, Jim, Bob, Joe, Buck, and Larry that hey guys I've got a job to do and a team to run so i'm sorry but our practices are closed to the public but we'll see you on Saturdays come fall cheering us on.

Simple. Then you won't have ESPN showing 20minute segments of "hollywood" hanging around USC's football team.

 

[methomps]

Interesting answers, thomps. No offense and with all due respect, it sounds a bit one-sided. Wouldn't you agree that much of what you call "sending a message" by the NCAA and the "fabricated" evidence used was a direct result of USC deliberately stonewalling the NCAA ? USC could have been present at all of the hearings had it just faced up to the fact that it had let a lot of stuff go and it was time to clean up the mess.

Lloyd Lake made it a condition of cooperating with the NCAA that USC not be present at his interview or the interviews of his sister, mother, and girlfriend.


USC cooperated fully, the NCAA even acknowledges that in its report.

The committee also considered the institution's cooperation in the processing of this case. Cooperation during the infractions process is addressed in Bylaw 19.01.3 -Responsibility to Cooperate, which states in relevant part that, "All representatives of member institutions shall cooperate fully with the NCAA Enforcement Staff, Committee on Infractions, Infractions Appeals Committee and Board of Directors. The enforcement policies and procedures require full and complete disclosure by all institutional representatives of any relevant information requested by the NCAA Enforcement Staff, Committee on Infractions or Infractions Appeals Committee during the course of an
inquiry." Further, NCAA Bylaw 32.1.4 ? Cooperative Principle, also addresses
institutional responsibility to fully cooperate during infractions investigations, stating, in relevant part, "The cooperative principle imposes an affirmative obligation on each institution to assist the enforcement staff in developing full information, to determine whether a possible violation of NCAA legislation has occurred and the details thereof." The committee determined that the cooperation exhibited by the institution met its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1.4. The cooperation the institution demonstrated in this case must be weighed against the conduct and failures of the institution and its personnel as set forth in Findings B-1-(b), B-6 and B-7. The committee concluded that in light of the serious nature of the violations and the failure of the institution to detect and/or prevent them, the institution's cooperation did not warrant relief in the penalties imposed by the committee in this case.

As for USC being so clean that it actually triggered the dominoes to fall when Griffin couldn't pay his credit card bill....I call BS on that one. USC had escaped somewhat after the Leinart apartment "gift"....chalk that one up to misinterpretation of the rules. USC had engaged in several practices that were considered "borderline" improper or circus-like: the recruits at the restaurant, the celebrities on the sidelines and even in the locker room, the general atmosphere of "hollywood". You have to admit that anyone outside of the USC fanbase saw a lot of smoke for several years that would have at least warranted significant investigations and probably resulted in at least minor sanctions.

The Leinart apartment gift being where our Heisman Trophy winner's dad paid the difference in rent so that Leinart and Jarrett could move to a gated apartment complex? Hardly nefarious.

Smoke = fire is not a popular argument on this board. Nobody is suggesting that USC didn't deserve sanctions of some kind, but there is an issue of degree.

 

[methomps]

I don't know how you can't fault PC for any of this. You say that all of these people weren't walking around the program (locker room, practices, etc) and the ones that were were longtime friends from before they stepped foot on campus.

Well, PC needs to tell these players that these "friends" aren't aloud to be a part of team activities because well, they are not on the team.

PC needs to tell Snoop, Will, Jim, Bob, Joe, Buck, and Larry that hey guys I've got a job to do and a team to run so i'm sorry but our practices are closed to the public but we'll see you on Saturdays come fall cheering us on.

Simple. Then you won't have ESPN showing 20minute segments of "hollywood" hanging around USC's football team.

As I said, seal off the university from outsiders and this goes down the exact same way it did. The people Bush took money from knew Bush since high school. They lived in San Diego. Bush's parents lived in San Diego. They wanted to start a marketing agency and they wanted Bush as their first client, not because they were giddy about sideline access but because of greed.

If Bush goes to Ohio State and is told to keep his friends away from team activities, this still happens the exact same way. The money started with Lamar Griffin, Bush's stepdad, taking money to pay off credit card debt.

 

[Oh8ch]

These are all solid, well thought out, logical rejoinders. However, I think you are missing the underlying point as the rest of the nation views this.



You got sanctions!!!! Nah nah nah nah nah nah!

 

[Taosman]

"an issue of degree?" USC stonewalled the investigation for 4 years. And Garrett and Cheaty Petey still haven't acted contrite in the least. And Garrett brings in a coach who has a history of ignoring the rules. Meanwhile Reggie still won't talk to the NCAA.The athletic department is completely out of control. A major house cleaning is in order. A major mindset change is in order.
USC should have gotten the death penalty!

 

[methomps]

"an issue of degree?" USC stonewalled the investigation for 4 years. And Garrett and Cheaty Petey still haven't acted contrite in the least. And Garrett brings in a coach who has a history of ignoring the rules. Meanwhile Reggie still won't talk to the NCAA.The athletic department is completely out of control. A major house cleaning is in order. A major mindset change is in order.
USC should have gotten the death penalty!

I think the NCAA would have a better idea than you as to whether or not USC stonewalled.

The committee also considered the institution's cooperation in the processing of this case. Cooperation during the infractions process is addressed in Bylaw 19.01.3 -Responsibility to Cooperate, which states in relevant part that, "All representatives of member institutions shall cooperate fully with the NCAA Enforcement Staff, Committee on Infractions, Infractions Appeals Committee and Board of Directors. The enforcement policies and procedures require full and complete disclosure by all institutional representatives of any relevant information requested by the NCAA Enforcement Staff, Committee on Infractions or Infractions Appeals Committee during the course of an inquiry." Further, NCAA Bylaw 32.1.4 ? Cooperative Principle, also addresses institutional responsibility to fully cooperate during infractions investigations, stating, in relevant part, "The cooperative principle imposes an affirmative obligation on each institution to assist the enforcement staff in developing full information, to determine whether a possible violation of NCAA legislation has occurred and the details thereof." The committee determined that the cooperation exhibited by the institution met its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1.4. The cooperation the institution demonstrated in this case must be weighed against the conduct and failures of the institution and its personnel as set forth in Findings B-1-(b), B-6 and B-7. The committee concluded that in light of the serious nature of the violations and the failure of the institution to detect and/or prevent them, the institution's cooperation did not warrant relief in the penalties imposed by the committee in this case.

These are all solid, well thought out, logical rejoinders. However, I think you are missing the underlying point as the rest of the nation views this.



You got sanctions!!!! Nah nah nah nah nah nah!

touche

 

[buckeyesin07]

Been far too long a process to still be fuming at anyone. I think Lake, Michaels, and Reggie's stepdad are most to blame. I might add Reggie to that list except I don't know whether he got involved voluntarily or whether his stepdad put him in such a hole that he just decided to go along with it. Certainly he could have done some more things to protect the university from the mess that he and his family created.

Seems kind of difficult not to fault Reggie, at least to the extent of the whole Impala issue.

 

[Taosman]

From left to right that would be McNair, some actor dude, MichaelsSaid the report, ?[McNair] knew or should have known that [Bush] and [New Era Sports marketing agents] were engaged in violations that negatively affected [Bush?s] amateurism status. The assistant football coach provided false and misleading information to the enforcement staff concerning his knowledge of [the marketing agents?] activity and also violated NCAA legislation by signing a document certifying that he had no knowledge of NCAA violations.?

"Dee said in light of the findings, USC now must severely limit the access to its football and basketball programs as they pertain to individuals outside of the university. He noted the NCAA was ?troubled? by USC?s failure to monitor environments around practices in both programs, which often included the presence of individuals whose interest ran contrary to that of the NCAA. The Committee on Infractions also considered imposing a television ban on USC, in what already appears to be the harshest non-?death penalty? sanctions leveled by the NCAA."
"Dee said the investigation stretched on nearly four years for a multitude of reasons. Chief among them was the fact that it encompassed so many different facets, including three different sports, two major athletes, multiple individuals outside the USC program, and eventually, the majority of USC?s athletic administration. The report also notes that a lack of cooperation by the subjects ? Bush and his family and Mayo ? slowed the progress of investigators. Dee also noted that the NCAA was extremely meticulous in its process, evidenced by the three-day infractions hearing. Dee noted that many infractions hearings will take approximately six hours. USC?s hearing lasted more than 30 hours."
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ys-uscpenalties061010

 

[Bleed S & G]

They got like 5 or 6 straight championships for just a few years of sanctions - sounds like an even trade.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

I think sammyjenkis meant conference championships...

 

[methomps]

From left to right that would be McNair, some actor dude, MichaelsSaid the report, ?[McNair] knew or should have known that [Bush] and [New Era Sports marketing agents] were engaged in violations that negatively affected [Bush?s] amateurism status. The assistant football coach provided false and misleading information to the enforcement staff concerning his knowledge of [the marketing agents?] activity and also violated NCAA legislation by signing a document certifying that he had no knowledge of NCAA violations.?

"Dee said in light of the findings, USC now must severely limit the access to its football and basketball programs as they pertain to individuals outside of the university. He noted the NCAA was ?troubled? by USC?s failure to monitor environments around practices in both programs, which often included the presence of individuals whose interest ran contrary to that of the NCAA. The Committee on Infractions also considered imposing a television ban on USC, in what already appears to be the harshest non-?death penalty? sanctions leveled by the NCAA."
"Dee said the investigation stretched on nearly four years for a multitude of reasons. Chief among them was the fact that it encompassed so many different facets, including three different sports, two major athletes, multiple individuals outside the USC program, and eventually, the majority of USC?s athletic administration. The report also notes that a lack of cooperation by the subjects ? Bush and his family and Mayo ? slowed the progress of investigators. Dee also noted that the NCAA was extremely meticulous in its process, evidenced by the three-day infractions hearing. Dee noted that many infractions hearings will take approximately six hours. USC?s hearing lasted more than 30 hours."

So to support your contention that "USC stonewalled the investigation for 4 years," you point to a quote where Paul Dee explains the main reasons why the investigation took so long, none of the stated reasons being that the institution stonewalled?

Again:

The committee determined that the cooperation exhibited by the institution met its obligation under Bylaws 19.01.3.3 and 32.1.4.

19.01.3 Responsibility to Cooperate. All representatives of member institutions shall cooperate fully with the NCAA enforcement staff, Committee on Infractions, Infractions Appeals Committee and Board of Directors to further the objectives of the Association and its enforcement program. The enforcement policies and procedures are an essential part of the intercollegiate athletics program of each member institution and require full and complete disclosure by all institutional representatives of any relevant information requested by the NCAA enforcement staff, Committee on Infractions or Infractions Appeals Committee during the course of an inquiry.(Revised: 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)

32.1.4 Cooperative Principle. The cooperative principle imposes an affirmative obligation on each institution to assist the enforcement staff in developing full information to determine whether a possible violation of NCAA legislation has occurred and the details thereof. An important element of the cooperative principle requires that all individuals who are subject to NCAA rules protect the integrity of an investigation. A failure to do so may be a violation of the principles of ethical conduct. The enforcement staff will usually share information with the institution during an investigation; however, it is understood that the staff, to protect the integrity of the investigation, may not in all instances be able to share information with the institution. (Adopted: 1/12/99)

 

[ScriptOhio]

"an issue of degree?" USC stonewalled the investigation for 4 years. And Garrett and Cheaty Petey still haven't acted contrite in the least. And Garrett brings in a coach who has a history of ignoring the rules. Meanwhile Reggie still won't talk to the NCAA.The athletic department is completely out of control. A major house cleaning is in order. A major mindset change is in order. USC should have gotten the death penalty!

I'm not sure that USC should have automatically gotten the death penalty. I'd have given them a choice:

1) fire your entire football coaching staff and AD. In addition, the NCAA will suspend them from working at any other NCAA institution for (something like) 4 years. No other penalty (i.e. probation, ban from bowl game, and/or scholarship loss) - why punish the kids currently in the program?

or
2) the death penalty.

 

[DaveyBoy]

no offense, thomps, but USC looks worse and worse the more you learn about it. The bummer about it is that had USC cooperated more than it did, it may have skated by with the mildest of sanctions. But your definition of cooperation is much different from the level of cooperation that Ohio State offered in the MoC and Troy Smith investigations. That's the difference between accepting NCAA investigation vs openly inviting the NCAA and independent investigators to camp out in your compliance office.

and as far as the Leinart/Jarrett thing is concerned.....yes, the NCAA said it was acceptable to pay it back. But that was a gift judgement for USC that wasn't reciporacated with aggressive compliance by USC.

that's my opinion

So to support your contention that "USC stonewalled the investigation for 4 years," you point to a quote where Paul Dee explains the main reasons why the investigation took so long, none of the stated reasons being that the institution stonewalled?

Again:

 

[Taosman]

So to support your contention that "USC stonewalled the investigation for 4 years," you point to a quote where Paul Dee explains the main reasons why the investigation took so long, none of the stated reasons being that the institution stonewalled?

Doesn't McNair qualify as "USC"? Doesn't Bush qualify as "USC" Doesn't Mayo? And then there's Petey's attitude. He obviously didn't know a thing so he just happened to leave right before the axe fell? And Garrett's wonderful, obnoxious attitude? Oh! I'm sure the multiple lawyers were very helpful to the NCAA's attempt to get to the bottom of this arrogant "catch me if you can" cheat fest. There is a minimum and I'm sure the USC lawyers helped to meet just that.
But, the penalty phase of the NCAA investigation points to the seriousness of the rule breaking and anti-amateurism attitude prevalent on campus.

 

[methomps]

no offense, thomps, but USC looks worse and worse the more you learn about it. The bummer about it is that had USC cooperated more than it did, it may have skated by with the mildest of sanctions. But your definition of cooperation is much different from the level of cooperation that Ohio State offered in the MoC and Troy Smith investigations. That's the difference between accepting NCAA investigation vs openly inviting the NCAA and independent investigators to camp out in your compliance office.

and as far as the Leinart/Jarrett thing is concerned.....yes, the NCAA said it was acceptable to pay it back. But that was a gift judgement for USC that wasn't reciporacated with aggressive compliance by USC.

that's my opinion

My definition of cooperation is "cooperate fully with the [NCAA]" (19.01.3) and "assist the [NCAA] in developing full information" (32.1.4). The NCAA says that USC met these definitions of cooperation.

USC was persistent in attempting to get Mayo and Bush to cooperate. Mayo never did, and for that USC disassociated him (meaning he can't donate to the university or receive any special treatment). USC eventually convinced Bush to sit down with the NCAA. After he failed to followup on post-interview requests for documentation, USC disassociated Bush.

I'm not going to get into a discussion that requires saying negative things about Ohio State compliance here on BP. Suffice it to say I disagree with your characterization.

Doesn't McNair qualify as "USC"? Doesn't Bush qualify as "USC" Doesn't Mayo? And then there's Petey's attitude. He obviously didn't know a thing so he just happened to leave right before the axe fell? And Garrett's wonderful, obnoxious attitude? Oh! I'm sure the multiple lawyers were very helpful to the NCAA's attempt to get to the bottom of this arrogant "catch me if you can" cheat fest. There is a minimum and I'm sure the USC lawyers helped to meet just that.
But, the penalty phase of the NCAA investigation points to the seriousness of the rule breaking and anti-amateurism attitude prevalent on campus.

So unsatisfied with the NCAA's express statement that USC cooperated, you choose to read stonewalling from the penalty handed down and your own invented theory that USC lawyers did just enough to get by (a practice that somehow the NCAA chose not to expose when discussing USC's cooperation)?

There is a 'minimum': "cooperate fully" and assist the NCAA in developing full information. USC did that.