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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
Okay, its been awhile, but I'm picking this task up again. I want to preface this selection with an asterisk. I had a lot of trouble making this pick, but I figure I have to put this guy in the Top 10, even though his ranking is a complete farce. You can argue against this, and you'd have a very valid point. But the Sixth Greatest Player in baseball history is:
6.* Barry Lamar Bonds. "The Balco Blaster." Of the next five players in the Top 10, Bonds blows them away in too many categories (predominantly as a result of his leap in production since 2001. Go figure). You could easily argue Bonds as higher on this list purely by the numbers, but you can also argue whether or not those numbers are legit.
Stats:
Bonds' numbers from 2001-2004 are unquestionably the best statistical seasons since Babe Ruth. Easily. No one else in the last 80 years is close. In that period, he's set single season records for Home Runs (73), Walks (232!), OBP (.609!), SLG (.863!), Intentional Walks (120), & OPS (1.4217). Most of those records haven't been sniffed since the Babe hung em up, and none of them will ever be broken. He's the only guy in the 500-500 Club (703-506), and he was the 2nd 40-40 Player in baseball history in 1996 (42-40). On paper, Bonds is as impressive as anybody.
As far as totals are concerned, Bonds is 6th all time in OBP, 5th in SLG, 6th in Runs, 7th in TB, 3rd in Homers, 12th in RBI, 1st in Walks, 4th in Extra Base Hits, and 1st in Intentional Walks (604 - wow!).
Awards:
The most decorated player in baseball history. SEVEN MVP's! (no one will ever approach that again - the next highest total is 3, shared by many HOF'ers). 13 time All-Star, 8 time Gold Glover, 12 Silver Sluggers, & 2 Batting Titles, too.
Bottom Line:
This is a farce, but I had to put him somewhere. I couldn't ignore Bonds completely. Had there been no 'Roids, I think Bonds would fall somewhere in the Top 25 all time, and would be a first ballot HOF'er.
Because of Balco, I think Bonds & all his steroid-using cohorts should be held out of Cooperstown forever. They've ruined all the records in the book, which (to me, anyway) is the equivalent of raping the fabric of baseball. If people want to argue against Pete Rose's eligibility, then Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, et al. have committed an equally henious crime & should be denied baseball immortality. Forget the asterisks because that will never happen, but the BWAA can make this right: don't vote them in!
Remember, all these records will stand for all time: can you ever see a clean player clubbing 60 homers again, much less 73?? No way. It will stay in the record book, and no one will ever take it seriously. And that's a big part of what baseball's importance is in America.
Anyway, now that I got this one out of the way, I will move on to the legit 7-10.
6.* Barry Lamar Bonds. "The Balco Blaster." Of the next five players in the Top 10, Bonds blows them away in too many categories (predominantly as a result of his leap in production since 2001. Go figure). You could easily argue Bonds as higher on this list purely by the numbers, but you can also argue whether or not those numbers are legit.
Stats:
Bonds' numbers from 2001-2004 are unquestionably the best statistical seasons since Babe Ruth. Easily. No one else in the last 80 years is close. In that period, he's set single season records for Home Runs (73), Walks (232!), OBP (.609!), SLG (.863!), Intentional Walks (120), & OPS (1.4217). Most of those records haven't been sniffed since the Babe hung em up, and none of them will ever be broken. He's the only guy in the 500-500 Club (703-506), and he was the 2nd 40-40 Player in baseball history in 1996 (42-40). On paper, Bonds is as impressive as anybody.
As far as totals are concerned, Bonds is 6th all time in OBP, 5th in SLG, 6th in Runs, 7th in TB, 3rd in Homers, 12th in RBI, 1st in Walks, 4th in Extra Base Hits, and 1st in Intentional Walks (604 - wow!).
Awards:
The most decorated player in baseball history. SEVEN MVP's! (no one will ever approach that again - the next highest total is 3, shared by many HOF'ers). 13 time All-Star, 8 time Gold Glover, 12 Silver Sluggers, & 2 Batting Titles, too.
Bottom Line:
This is a farce, but I had to put him somewhere. I couldn't ignore Bonds completely. Had there been no 'Roids, I think Bonds would fall somewhere in the Top 25 all time, and would be a first ballot HOF'er.
Because of Balco, I think Bonds & all his steroid-using cohorts should be held out of Cooperstown forever. They've ruined all the records in the book, which (to me, anyway) is the equivalent of raping the fabric of baseball. If people want to argue against Pete Rose's eligibility, then Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, et al. have committed an equally henious crime & should be denied baseball immortality. Forget the asterisks because that will never happen, but the BWAA can make this right: don't vote them in!
Remember, all these records will stand for all time: can you ever see a clean player clubbing 60 homers again, much less 73?? No way. It will stay in the record book, and no one will ever take it seriously. And that's a big part of what baseball's importance is in America.
Anyway, now that I got this one out of the way, I will move on to the legit 7-10.
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Excellent post, especially the above. As a kid, I memorized all of the stats, and tried to figure out (for example) who was the better slugger - Jimmie Foxx or Harmon Killebrew, and would Reggie Jackson end up being better than either one. Now, I simply don't care. Barry Bonds is the Hulk Hogan of baseball - a champ, but a farcical one.
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Sloop, I agree with what you said on Bonds. And I'm glad they're won't be any more Yankees inthe top-10, but someone who began and ended his career in that same city is certainly due for an appearance soon. 
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
LJB: "Barry Bonds is the Hulk Hogan of baseball - a champ, but a farcical one."
Actually, Hogan was more of a legit Champ than Bonds is. He's the first guy to win the WWF Strap more than twice, he became the 9th Champion in WWF History on January 23, 1984 when he defeated Iran's greatest athlete (the Iron Shiek) in Madison Square Garden, he's the only guy to ever beat Andre the Giant, and who could ever forget his riveting performance in 'Suburban Commando.'
Trivia: before Hogan, the Iron Shiek held the belt for exactly 29 days: December 26, 1983 to January 23, 1984. What's really pathetic is that I didn't have to look any of this up.
bb73: "Sloop, I agree with what you said on Bonds. And I'm glad they're won't be any more Yankees inthe top-10, but someone who began and ended his career in that same city is certainly due for an appearance soon."
Say Hey! Whoever could you mean?? I'm researching your New York-New York guy against a guy who started and ended his career in Milwaukee, and two other guys. I don't know who to pick yet. Results to come soon.
Actually, Hogan was more of a legit Champ than Bonds is. He's the first guy to win the WWF Strap more than twice, he became the 9th Champion in WWF History on January 23, 1984 when he defeated Iran's greatest athlete (the Iron Shiek) in Madison Square Garden, he's the only guy to ever beat Andre the Giant, and who could ever forget his riveting performance in 'Suburban Commando.'
Trivia: before Hogan, the Iron Shiek held the belt for exactly 29 days: December 26, 1983 to January 23, 1984. What's really pathetic is that I didn't have to look any of this up.
bb73: "Sloop, I agree with what you said on Bonds. And I'm glad they're won't be any more Yankees inthe top-10, but someone who began and ended his career in that same city is certainly due for an appearance soon."
Say Hey! Whoever could you mean?? I'm researching your New York-New York guy against a guy who started and ended his career in Milwaukee, and two other guys. I don't know who to pick yet. Results to come soon.
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I can still remember all of that on Sunday All-American Wrestling...the Shiek defeated Bob Backlund with the Camel Clutch...my Italian Grandmother was irate.Sloopy45 said:
Anyway...I'm guessing 7th is "The Say Hey" Kid....
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
Luca: "I can still remember all of that on Sunday All-American Wrestling...the Shiek defeated Bob Backlund with the Camel Clutch...my Italian Grandmother was irate."
My Uncle and his college buddies were at the Garden the night Hogan beat the Shiek. They sat in the blue section (upper deck) w/ every New York degenerate in the city around them, and were the only 4 people in the entire Arena rooting for the Iron Shiek. They thought they were gonna get stabbed & hidden in some alley somewhere.
Also, some kid made three rounds around the upper deck with a huge sign that read, "Hulk HoLgan" until they saved the kid some embarassment and told him the name was misspelled.
"Anyway...I'm guessing 7th is "The Say Hey" Kid...."
Actually, you and bb73 are incorrect. The # 7 I have is none other than:
7. Henry Louis Aaron "The Hammer" When comparing Mays & Aaron's 162 game projections, they're almost identical. Its very difficult to pick between them, so I had to nit-pick. Aaron was a slightly better hitter & run producer than Mays: Aaron projects to about 10 more RBI per season than Willie (113 to 103), slightly more hits (185 to 178), and a higher lifetime average (.305 to .302) despite having 1,483 more ABs than Mays. They project out to the same homers: Mays - 36, Aaron -37.
Aaron also won more batting Titles (2 - .328 in 1956 & .355 in '59) to Willie's 1. Hank also led the league in more categories than Mays over the course of his career.
Again, its nitpicking, you can make a great case for Willie if you include intangibles: Mays was better defensively (won 12 Gold Gloves to Aaron's 3), he played Centerfield, he played in Candlestick Park which lost a lot of Home Runs for him (still hit 660 despite that), and he lost a prime season in 1953 to military service. I think the best case for Mays is stolen bases, in which he blows Hank away: 338 to 240.
All those things aside, it may be like trying to pick out the finest grain of sand on Pebble Beach, but I think Aaron was a better offensive player than Mays. Jennifer Aniston or Jessica Simpson, anyone?
And for any of you Bad News Bears fans, I didn't include the 42 Errors Aaron made in his first year of Sandlot ball in my calculation.
Stats:
Aaron is 3rd all time in Runs (2,174) & Hits (3,771), 1st in Total Bases (6,856 - Wow!!) & Homers (Duh - you don't need the total posted here, you know what it is), 1st in RBI (2,297), 1st in Extra Base Hits (1,477), & 9th in Doubles (624). I mean, how can you argue here? The guy is the top or very close to the top in all the major offensive categories.
A Cool Stat:
If any of you are interested, Hank Aaron is 2nd all-time in Intentional Walks with 293 to Bonds' 604. When people talk about unbreakable records in baseball, bring up 604: its 311 more than the next guy, and that next guy is Henry Aaron who played 23 seasons. Wow!
Awards:
What can you say? 21 time All-Star, 1957 MVP, 3 time Gold Glover, and 2 time batting Champion. The Great # 44.
If any of you can't tell, I'm a huge fan of Aaron. The guy was an intimidating, take no prisoners, offensive machine. I think he's the most understated super-duper-star in the sport's history, having played in Milwaukee-Atlanta-and back to Milwaukee (that's for BuckeyeBill) for his whole career. Aaron was never a guy who walked a lot (like most sluggers). His highest single season total of BBs was 92 in 1972, and that was way out of character. He was a grip it and rip it hitter, and nobody did that better than him. Its just a shame that I had to rank a cheating 'Roid head above a National Treasure like Aaron.
Mays will be # 8. Coming soon.
My Uncle and his college buddies were at the Garden the night Hogan beat the Shiek. They sat in the blue section (upper deck) w/ every New York degenerate in the city around them, and were the only 4 people in the entire Arena rooting for the Iron Shiek. They thought they were gonna get stabbed & hidden in some alley somewhere.
Also, some kid made three rounds around the upper deck with a huge sign that read, "Hulk HoLgan" until they saved the kid some embarassment and told him the name was misspelled.
"Anyway...I'm guessing 7th is "The Say Hey" Kid...."
Actually, you and bb73 are incorrect. The # 7 I have is none other than:
7. Henry Louis Aaron "The Hammer" When comparing Mays & Aaron's 162 game projections, they're almost identical. Its very difficult to pick between them, so I had to nit-pick. Aaron was a slightly better hitter & run producer than Mays: Aaron projects to about 10 more RBI per season than Willie (113 to 103), slightly more hits (185 to 178), and a higher lifetime average (.305 to .302) despite having 1,483 more ABs than Mays. They project out to the same homers: Mays - 36, Aaron -37.
Aaron also won more batting Titles (2 - .328 in 1956 & .355 in '59) to Willie's 1. Hank also led the league in more categories than Mays over the course of his career.
Again, its nitpicking, you can make a great case for Willie if you include intangibles: Mays was better defensively (won 12 Gold Gloves to Aaron's 3), he played Centerfield, he played in Candlestick Park which lost a lot of Home Runs for him (still hit 660 despite that), and he lost a prime season in 1953 to military service. I think the best case for Mays is stolen bases, in which he blows Hank away: 338 to 240.
All those things aside, it may be like trying to pick out the finest grain of sand on Pebble Beach, but I think Aaron was a better offensive player than Mays. Jennifer Aniston or Jessica Simpson, anyone?
And for any of you Bad News Bears fans, I didn't include the 42 Errors Aaron made in his first year of Sandlot ball in my calculation.
Stats:
Aaron is 3rd all time in Runs (2,174) & Hits (3,771), 1st in Total Bases (6,856 - Wow!!) & Homers (Duh - you don't need the total posted here, you know what it is), 1st in RBI (2,297), 1st in Extra Base Hits (1,477), & 9th in Doubles (624). I mean, how can you argue here? The guy is the top or very close to the top in all the major offensive categories.
A Cool Stat:
If any of you are interested, Hank Aaron is 2nd all-time in Intentional Walks with 293 to Bonds' 604. When people talk about unbreakable records in baseball, bring up 604: its 311 more than the next guy, and that next guy is Henry Aaron who played 23 seasons. Wow!
Awards:
What can you say? 21 time All-Star, 1957 MVP, 3 time Gold Glover, and 2 time batting Champion. The Great # 44.
If any of you can't tell, I'm a huge fan of Aaron. The guy was an intimidating, take no prisoners, offensive machine. I think he's the most understated super-duper-star in the sport's history, having played in Milwaukee-Atlanta-and back to Milwaukee (that's for BuckeyeBill) for his whole career. Aaron was never a guy who walked a lot (like most sluggers). His highest single season total of BBs was 92 in 1972, and that was way out of character. He was a grip it and rip it hitter, and nobody did that better than him. Its just a shame that I had to rank a cheating 'Roid head above a National Treasure like Aaron.
Mays will be # 8. Coming soon.
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21, I was thinking you'd be able to appreciate back-to-back placings for Bonds and his 'Godfather'. We shoulda made Sloop an offer he can't refuse for Mays over Aaron, but it can be argued either way. I would have made that pick based on the better defense and stolen bases. Plus the Godfather connection. 
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Well Barry and Willie can be back-to-back...but Hank should be in front of Barry IMO. There are no chemical questions for Hank and he did his thing in a much more racially charged time...with as much class as anyone who has ever graced a diamond.
Hank Aaron is possibly one of the most underrated players of all-time.
Hank Aaron is possibly one of the most underrated players of all-time.
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
bb73 & Luca: "Plus the Godfather connection."
Quick trivia about the Godfather & baseball: in the 'Godfather,' during the scene where Sonny is shot in the toll-booth ... you know the exact day in which that scene is supposed to occur? October 3, 1951. How do I know this? Because Sonny is listening to Russ Hodges call of the '51 Giants-Dodger Playoff (the 'Shot Heard Round the World,' 'Miracle at Coogan's Bluff,' Bobby Thompson-Ralph Branca, 'The Giants win the Pennant! The Giants Win the Pennant!') game on his car radio when he's ambushed.
Anyway, # 8:
8. Willie Howard Mays Jr. "The Say Hey Kid." Anyone who grew up in the 60's acknowledges that Mays is the best ballplayer they've ever seen, and its hard to argue. His catch & throw against Vic Wertz & the Cleveland Indians to save Game 1 of the '54 World Series is probably the most famous defensive play in the history of baseball.
Stats:
Willie is 4th all time in Home Runs (660), 7th in Runs (2,062), 11th in Hits (3,283), 3rd in Total Bases (6,066), and 9th in RBI (1,903). He topped 40 homers 6 times and 50 homers twice. He's one of three men with 500 Homers and 3,000 Hits (Aaron & Murray are the other two).
Just to back my previous post: look at Aaron's rank in these categories compared to Mays. I'm not taking anything away from Willie, but Aaron's resume in this area is much better. That's why I had to pick # 44 over # 24.
Awards:
20 time All-Star, 1951 NL Rookie of the Year, 1954 & 1965 NL MVP, 12 time Gold Glover, and 1954 Batting Champion (.345).
There's not much more to say about Mays that hasn't been said. He's one of the greatest all-around players in the history of the game: 5 tools, all the way. Gene 'Stick' Michael, the Yankees' former GM & super-scout who built the 90's Dynasty (the preeminent authority on this topic in my eyes) said that the two best offensive players he ever saw were Willie Mays and Rickey Henderson. And normally, when it comes to baseball, you can take what the Stick says right to the bank.
Quick trivia about the Godfather & baseball: in the 'Godfather,' during the scene where Sonny is shot in the toll-booth ... you know the exact day in which that scene is supposed to occur? October 3, 1951. How do I know this? Because Sonny is listening to Russ Hodges call of the '51 Giants-Dodger Playoff (the 'Shot Heard Round the World,' 'Miracle at Coogan's Bluff,' Bobby Thompson-Ralph Branca, 'The Giants win the Pennant! The Giants Win the Pennant!') game on his car radio when he's ambushed.
Anyway, # 8:
8. Willie Howard Mays Jr. "The Say Hey Kid." Anyone who grew up in the 60's acknowledges that Mays is the best ballplayer they've ever seen, and its hard to argue. His catch & throw against Vic Wertz & the Cleveland Indians to save Game 1 of the '54 World Series is probably the most famous defensive play in the history of baseball.
Stats:
Willie is 4th all time in Home Runs (660), 7th in Runs (2,062), 11th in Hits (3,283), 3rd in Total Bases (6,066), and 9th in RBI (1,903). He topped 40 homers 6 times and 50 homers twice. He's one of three men with 500 Homers and 3,000 Hits (Aaron & Murray are the other two).
Just to back my previous post: look at Aaron's rank in these categories compared to Mays. I'm not taking anything away from Willie, but Aaron's resume in this area is much better. That's why I had to pick # 44 over # 24.
Awards:
20 time All-Star, 1951 NL Rookie of the Year, 1954 & 1965 NL MVP, 12 time Gold Glover, and 1954 Batting Champion (.345).
There's not much more to say about Mays that hasn't been said. He's one of the greatest all-around players in the history of the game: 5 tools, all the way. Gene 'Stick' Michael, the Yankees' former GM & super-scout who built the 90's Dynasty (the preeminent authority on this topic in my eyes) said that the two best offensive players he ever saw were Willie Mays and Rickey Henderson. And normally, when it comes to baseball, you can take what the Stick says right to the bank.
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Is my failing memory correct in that Bonds' Godfather was the on-deck hitter when the last baseball game Sonny Corleone ever heard ended?Sloopy45 said:
edit - I googled it to find out. The Godfather connection is complete:
Dark led off with a single, just past Hodges' glove. Mueller followed with another single, again just past Hodges. He could have had it easily if he had not had to hold Dark close to the bag. Then our best clutch hitter, Monte Irvin, was up. We were crazed with hope! But Irvin popped out. Groans. Then Lockman doubled, scoring Dark and sending Mueller to third. Delay! Mueller was hurt and must be carried off the field. The exhausted Newcombe was removed, and Ralph Branca came in. Bobby Thomson at the plate, Willie Mays on deck. I knew they would walk Thomson, since he had hit Branca well all year and first base was open, and why not put the pressure on the rookie? But they pitched to him. Strike one. And then the next pitch, and we all know what happened. In the immortal words of Russ Hodges:
"A line drive, it's going to be, ...the Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant! Bobby Thomson has hit a home run into the left field seats and the Giants have defeated the Dodgers by the score of 5 to 4. The place is going crazy! Heeeeeeeeeeooooooooo!"
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Sometimes it's amazing how much mostly useless sports knowledge is buried in our brains.osugrad21 said:
Some facts in support of Mays over Aaron, besides the stolen bases category that Sloop mentioned earlier.
career OBP - .384 for Mays, .374 for Aaron (close edge for Mays)
career Slug% - .557 Mays vs .555 Aaron (basically a wash)
But how about this fielding statistic:
Mays played 2842 games in the outfield, and made 7095 putouts (ML record).
Aaron played 2760 games in the outfield, and made 5539 putouts.
Extrapolated to 2842 games, Aaron would have made 5704 putouts. That means that Mays would have caught 1392 more balls than Aaron over the course of their outfield careers. That's about 70 outs each year! Much of that is because Aaron switched to RF after playing some in center, and center fielders catch more balls. But Mays holds the career record for outfield putouts, despite missing 1953, and I believe his defense more than offsets the slight edge that Aaron has in career offensive numbers.
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So far so good...However, i would put Williams ahead of Lou. Williams lost good productive years when he was off fighting a war. I also would put both Hammerin' Hank and Say Hey before Bonds. Call me old school but I don't have any questions regarding their non-drug induced raw talent but with Barry that is all I have is questions. Don't get me wrong the man definitely belongs on somebody's list, just not mine. I am not going to reward someone that has several unanswered questions regarding "help" with a top ten listing over guys like Musial, Ott, Rose, Bench, Yaz, Kaline, Mantle, etc. I haven't researched it but I wonder were Barry stacks up before his recent power surges the last few years. I mean if you could go back and say I know for a fact that he wasn't on steroids from say 1987-1996. How do those numbers stack up with the game's greatest.
We have all seen how some of today's players (Giambi comes to mind) stats went south after getting off the juice. Don't get me wrong, Barry's numbers pre-juice were good bordering on great, but they just exploded the last few years. I know it hasn't been proven that he was on the juice, however how many late 30's-early 40 year olds do you know that consistently hit 30-60% more homers than they did in their 20's and early to mid 30's? Other than Barry I cannot name one.
We have all seen how some of today's players (Giambi comes to mind) stats went south after getting off the juice. Don't get me wrong, Barry's numbers pre-juice were good bordering on great, but they just exploded the last few years. I know it hasn't been proven that he was on the juice, however how many late 30's-early 40 year olds do you know that consistently hit 30-60% more homers than they did in their 20's and early to mid 30's? Other than Barry I cannot name one.
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