Immunizations/Vaccinations

[muffler dragon]

I figured I would start a thread regarding this lovely "hot button" topic for those who want to debate/discuss it.

I read the following article this morning, and here are some pertinent snippets:

Parents may be jailed over vaccinations - Yahoo! News

LONDON - As doctors struggle to eradicate polio worldwide, one of their biggest problems is persuading parents to vaccinate their children. In Belgium, authorities are resorting to an extreme measure: prison sentences.

The polio vaccine is the only one required by Belgian law. Exceptions are granted only if parents can prove their children might have a bad physical reaction to the vaccine.
"Polio is a very serious disease and has caused great suffering in the past," said Dr. Victor Lusayu, head of Belgium's international vaccine centre. "The discovery of the vaccine has eliminated polio from Europe and it is simply the law in Belgium that you have to be vaccinated. ... At the end of the day, the law must be respected."
Some ethicists back the hardline Belgian stance.
"Nobody has the right to unfettered liberty, and people do not have a right to endanger their kids," said John Harris, a professor of bioethics at the University of Manchester.
"The parents in this case do not have any rights they can appeal to. They have obligations they are not fulfilling."

Ethicists argue that people who refuse vaccinations are taking advantage of everyone else who has been vaccinated. Once the majority of a population is vaccinated, there are few susceptible people the disease can infect, thus lowering the odds of an outbreak. People who refuse to be vaccinated are "free riders," Harris said. "They can only afford to refuse the vaccine because they are surrounded by people who have fulfilled their obligations to the community."

My thoughts on the matter are this:

I have researched the carrier agents used for immunizations/vaccinations. I have researched the potential health benefits and health dangers of immunizations/vaccinations.

My wife and I have decided to NOT immunize our children.

Needless to say, I feel that the opinions stated in the article regarding my decision are fallacious, but that can be discussed in subsequent posts.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[MaxBuck]

My thought is that you and your wife are being inexcusably irresponsible. Are you planning to refuse your children polio vaccine along with all the others?

 

[buckeyes_rock]

.

My wife and I have decided to NOT immunize our children.



Let me know your thoughts.

Another reason for home schooling perhaps?

 

[muffler dragon]

My thought is that you and your wife are being inexcusably irresponsible.

Considering there are no emoticons with this statement, I wanted to verify that you're being serious with this comment. Are you?

Are you planning to refuse your children polio vaccine along with all the others?

Yes.

 

[muffler dragon]

Another reason for home schooling perhaps?

Actually, no, the two are not related. Forms can be acquired and signed for exemption for public schools.

 

[MaxBuck]

Oh, yes, I am quite serious. I don't think this is trivial at all. Frankly, if you lived near me and my kids attended school with yours, I'd be particularly upset. As it is, I think this is borderline child abuse.

 

[muffler dragon]

Oh, yes, I am quite serious. I don't think this is trivial at all.

Max:

I've come to see that you tend to read between the lines to your own liking on certain topics. Case in point: you considered me (or the unknown "you") as a non-thinker when it came to the global warming situation without knowing my background. Once again, you have colored my decision as trivial. I don't know what I would have to do to get you to understand that I don't take the topics that we discuss as trivial or without a great deal of thought. If your penchant for judgment is going to continue down this path; then I'll just request that you add your thoughts without the personalization.

1) I don't feel that immunizations/vaccinations are a trival matter in the slightest.
2) I don't view my family's health as a trivial matter.
3) I don't view my community's health as a trivial matter.

I have educated myself more than the average Joe with regard to the benefits and risks of immunizations/vaccinations. IMO, it is MORE OF A RISK to get immunized/vaccinated than it is to let the human body fight germs and diseases. As a chemist, I KNOW what the health risks are of the vaccinations. The MSDS on the majority of these agents would reveal major concerns to the community IF they were provided.

It's not a trivial matter.

Frankly, if you lived near me and my kids attended school with yours, I'd be particularly upset.

Which, of course, is your prerogative. Interestingly enough, I don't feel the same sort of emotion in kind.

As it is, I think this is borderline child abuse.

LOL! Tell me something, Max. Are you aware that newborns do NOT produce antibodies for the first six months of their lives?

 

[buckeyes_rock]

Actually, no, the two are not related. Forms can be acquired and signed for exemption for public schools.

Question for ya...Why would the American Academy of Pediatrics and the CDC and agencies like this who's job it is to research this stuff recommend vaccines if they weren't beneficial?

I'm not at all trying to be critical. But as a concerned parent, I've often wondered about things like this. But in the end, being that I'm not a medical researcher paid to conduct and analyze these studies, I default to the experts.

Sounds like you have a research background. I'm sure you've done your homework. But do really think all these agencies are lying to us?

 

[muffler dragon]

Question for ya...Why would the American Academy of Pediatrics and the CDC and agencies like this who's job it is to research this stuff recommend vaccines if they weren't beneficial?

I never said there weren't benefits to vaccines. My position is that the danger of vaccines outweighs the benefits (for children in particular).

I'm not at all trying to be critical. But as a concerned parent, I've often wondered about things like this. But in the end, being that I'm not a medical researcher paid to conduct and analyze these studies, I default to the experts.

I understand completely where you're coming from.

Sounds like you have a research background. I'm sure you've done your homework. But do really think all these agencies are lying to us?

1) I'm not saying that they're lying.
2) As to motivations for vaccine "pushing", I feel that the different segments of the medical community may or may not have agendas. However, I'm just trying to stick with the facts and not the emotionalization.

 

[MaxBuck]

Max:

I've come to see that you tend to read between the lines to your own liking on certain topics. ...

2) I don't view my family's health as a trivial matter.
3) I don't view my community's health as a trivial matter.

My remark about its not being trivial was a response to your query as to whether I was serious. It meant nothing more than that.

I don't doubt you are serious about this, nor that you take your family's health seriously. But failure to vaccinate your kids is pretty much abusive IMO, and yes, I'm aware that the carriers are not entirely benign. But the worldwide health ramifications of failure to immunize go way past any potential health impacts from the carriers.

If you think the carriers pose more health risk than is posed by not vaccinating, I think you utterly lack a sense of perspective.

 

[MaxBuck]

My position is that the danger of vaccines outweighs the benefits (for children in particular).

This position reminds me a lot of family members (who were themselves chemists) who lectured me as a child that fluoridation was a Communist plot that would have dire health effects on our populace. Their beliefs were both dangerous and stupid.

 

[BUCKYLE]

The "risks" incurred by the rest of the vaccinated populace make the risks against vaccination even remotely acceptable to you. If no one else vaccinated their children, the risk of actually contracting polio would outweigh the risk of the vaccination.

Everyone else risks their child contracting polio from the vaccine so that you can feel comfortable not doing it. That's kind of fucked up.

 

[buckeyes_rock]

I never said there weren't benefits to vaccines. My position is that the danger of vaccines outweighs the benefits (for children in particular).

And the CDC doesn't take into consideration the cost/benefit analysis? Where children are concerned are you saying that no potential danger is acceptable?

As a parent who has recently taken my children for shots, I can tell you that the only abnormal reactions listed for most vaccines are fever or allergic reaction (which is very rare).

So what types of things outweigh the benefits in your opinion? I'm just curious since you obviously feel very strongly about it, I'm assuming you've found out some alarming things.

 

[muffler dragon]

My remark about its not being trivial was a response to your query as to whether I was serious. It meant nothing more than that.

Fine.

I don't doubt you are serious about this, nor that you take your family's health seriously. But failure to vaccinate your kids is pretty much abusive IMO, and yes, I'm aware that the carriers are not entirely benign.

And, IMO, the nature of the carriers' negative ramifications essentially neutralizes the potential benefits of the immunizations/vaccinations. Let's not kid ourselves and attempt to present the idea that vaccinations work all the time or at all. Furthermore, let's not forget the latency of these chemicals/entities that may or may not serve a purpose in the first place. Coincidentally, an evaluation of history has shown that hygiene plays just as much (if not more) of a role in a person's health than immunizations/vaccinations.

As for the abuse consideration, I'll just leave that to you. It's not even in my spectrum.

But the worldwide health ramifications of failure to immunize go way past any potential health impacts from the carriers.

I'll just say that I agree with some underlying currents of this statement and disagree with others.

If you think the carriers pose more health risk than is posed by not vaccinating, I think you utterly lack a sense of perspective.

My perspective is not myopic in the slightest. It's called having a "different" perspective. You take it as gospel that vaccines/immunizations do such and such and these results outweight potential negativities. I disagree. Furthermore, I am of the mindset that the human body CAN and DOES poses a greater defense to diseases than synthetics. This is a difference in perspective; not a lack of such.

 

[sandgk]

I believe that risk assessment is an appropriate lens through which to view medical decisions like whether or not to immunize / vaccinate children. I should, as that risk assessment is itself part of the review of efficacy of a planned immunization or vaccination protocol - before it falls into the parent's lap (or their child's doctor) to decide on recommendation of such disease preventive measures.

Which leads to the simplest of Ocham's Razors -

Which is riskier --
Avoiding the use of vaccines or immunizations - OR
Implementing vaccines and immunizations as part of the child's pediatric medical regimen?

The answer to that is clear, based on history of childhood disease, and death, prior to the availability of such preventive medical regimens. Thus it does not fall in favor of the former action.