Hypothetical: Best fit for 12th Big 10 team?

[stagtennis]

Nice points. The thought of the Big Ten even thinking about expanding makes me sick. I do not want to see it happen. Personally, i think that adding Notre Dame would also be a tremendously bad move. Adding Syracuse, Pitt, Missouri, West Va etc only weakens the conference. It would be at best a horizonal movement.

I guess this is where we do disagree. If the conference were to vote for expanding, I would hope that they would choose to enhance the conference geographically and monetarily.

One of the reasons the Bucks picked up OB to coach the hoops team was the hope that he could use his NYC ties to bring in some recruits. Unfortunately, he was not able to do so. The Big Ten product just isn't as strong in the metro region as it is in the midwest. Adding a team from this region would boost viewership in the area to possibly help with these recruits.

 

[jlb1705]

Also good points. I'll agree with you that expansion is a bad idea in the first place, and that adding Notre Dame would suck. I think though if you want to add based on expanding geographically and financially, Syracuse and Missouri would be better options, and the only ones that approach the "Big Ten Profile".

Good point about OB, but adding a coach from a certain region to boost recruiting is a totally different animal than what you're proposing. Coaches directly impact recruiting - the do the scouting and make the pitch. Being on TV is a secondary factor. It raises consciousness in the region, but it doesn't have near as strong an impact as pounding the pavement and building a strong network - something which can be accomplished without being on TV in a certain region (even though it may be tougher, admittedely).

 

[martinss01]

We don't want a 12th team because that would promote an argument for a Big Ten Championship Game. And we already have one on the third Sunday of November. :)

I say kick Penn State to the curb and go back to the way it was 11-12 years ago.

dead on! joining the big ten was the biggest mistake penn state ever made. they would be in a bowl game THIS YEAR if they played as an independant or in a different conference. i can't for the life of me understand why ANY team would want to join the big ten. why would you want your team to go 2 and whatever every year?

no team on that list has any chance of doing better than 50% through the year in the big ten year in and year out. why would any ad wish that on their program?

Adding a 12th would enable the Big 10/11 to establish a conference championship giving the conference more exposure. This in turn could help in recruiting. This is what I meant by being more competitive.

more exposure as in having MORE than 4 teams on the "fav college teams in the nation" list? im not certin the big ten could get more exposure...

 

[jlb1705]

Some at Penn State would disagree. Once again think about things outside the football stadium a little bit.

Besides, Penn State isn't in a bowl because they stink. They'd stink whether they were in a conference or not.

 

[martinss01]

Some at Penn State would disagree. Once again think about things outside the football stadium a little bit.

id like to take this oportunity to inform everyone that i am flat out incapable of such thought. sorry :(

Besides, Penn State isn't in a bowl because they stink. They'd stink whether they were in a conference or not.

i couldn't disagree with you more. penn state is a 6 win team as an independant. they would compete well in any other conference. joe pa didn't suddenly start sucking as a coach the year after they joined the big ten. the decline of penn state football and the timing in which they joined the big ten are not a coincidence.

 

[AmeriBuck007]

Screw letting ND in. How many times has the Big Ten asked them to join, and they've just thumbed their noses at us. It wont happen, but out of this list I would say Pitt.

Agree 100% Pitt plays big 10 ball and would nicely fit in the bunch while ND would just cramp our style

 

[jlb1705]

Oops, I meant to include this link in my last post.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/archives/intercom_1996/Jan25/BigTen.html

Penn State was a great team for several years in the Big Ten when they first joined. If it was a matter of them not being good enough for the conference, they would've stunk from the get-go. I think this has more to do with the decline of the coaching and recruiting faculties of Joe Paterno, rather than their conference affiliation.

 

[MegaWoody]

Notre Dame is the only school with the media draw necessary to justify adding a twelfth team. But they don't want to do it and I'm not sure we want them to.

Pros: additional national TV audience for the conference. Whether they deserve it or not, ND has a lot of followers around the country, many of whom have no direct connection with the University other than their religion. Whether we care to admit it or not, there are millions of folks who watch the ND broadcasts on NBC every Saturday. With ND in the conference, those millions would become Big 10 watchers.

Cons: the likelihood of a Big 10 championship play-off increases exponentially. This would probably mean that going undefeated in the Big 10 would be much harder than it is now ...and it ain't exactly easy now. For tOSU to win the Big 10, the Bucks might well have to play the next best team twice, a la Auburn v. Tennessee. That would make undefeated seasons a real rarity, which would make National Championships even harder to achieve for Big 10 teams.

On the whole, I'd just as soon see ND stay independent. Let them stew in their own juice while tOSU picks up a few more NCs.

 

[buckeyebri]

I'll just throw this team out there for the sake of arguement, since I haven't seen them placed in the mix yet.

How about Louisville???

I don't know how they are as an academic institution, and yes I know they just joined the big least. However, they have been pretty solid in football lately, as well as perennially solid in basketball.

Besides the look on John L. Smith's face when having to play his old team would be priceless....

 

[Onebuckfan]

Pittsburgh

Pitt ..the Big East is weak, they have a football tradition second to ND on the list, there Basketball team would compete for a title right away...ND has a holier than thou attitude..they aren't ready to admit they need the Big Ten more than the Big Ten neeeds them...IMHO

 

[Dryden]

Yeah, anonymous AP writer agrees with me!

Reason not to add Pitt:

The schools with the worst graduation rates, both overall and for black players, were Pittsburgh and Texas. Pittsburgh had an overall graduation rate of 31 percent and 20 percent for black players. Texas had an overall graduation rate of 34 percent, 33 percent for its black players.

Reason to add Syracuse:

Syracuse (78 percent overall, 69 for black players), Notre Dame (78 and 74) and Boston College (77 and 76) had the best graduation rates overall and for black players.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=1940651

Apparently Walt Harris learned quite a bit from Coop!

No offense, but no way are there more Big 10 fans in NY and NE than the Midwest. The Big 10 is a Midwest Conference and the championship game should be played in the Midwest. BTW isn't the Big 10 HQ in Indy? The MAC championship game is in Detroit and there are no scheduling problems. If the game is on a Saturday it wouldn't affect the Colts at all. Indy is basically in the middle of Big 10 country and would be the easiest trip for everyone. You talk like you wouldn't want the game in the heart of Big 10 country, WTF?

No, I'm not saying I wouldn't want a CCG in the Midwest, or that the NY/NJ area is Big-10 country. What I'm saying is that since most places east of the Mississippi get Big-10 games as their regional coverage, and since the NY/NJ area is already big recruiting grounds for the Big-10, my suggestion is that it has the most potential to significantly grow the Big-10 market and field competitive teams in many sports aside from football. The TV penetration for NY homes, I think, far outweighs adding South Bend Catholic State, Missouri, or Pitt. The Carrier Dome is an added benefit, but not my only suggestion for a site to host the presumed CCG. It would be one of three or four that rotates from west, center, and eastern Great Lakes sites.

I'm thinking in terms of market exposure, competitive teams, and academics, 'Cuse meets all three.

 

[buckiprof]

With all due respect to Miami (OH), it is laughable to consider them Big Ten quality in terms of academics. Academically, the Big Ten (which is actually 12 schools) is primarily known for excellent research, professional schools, and graduate programs. The programs in these areas are recognized nationally as some of the best. Miami just doesn't stack up in these areas. If you consider the best athletic and academic fit for the Big 10, you have to go with Syracuse, Missouri, or Notre Dame IMO.

Good point buckeyegrad and as you mentioned in another post it is the Council of Presidents who votes to extend an invitation to an institution on joining the Big Ten, as was done for PSU. What is slightly off in your post is that ND is currently not a good academic fit for the Big Ten. They have a good undergraduate program, but their graduate school is not very good at all.

I have brother-in-law who attended ND, and two nephews there right now, and all of them have told me no way no how going to grad school there. We should also remember that a few years back when the Big Ten extended an invite to ND to join the conference, that the Council of Presidents did not have a unanimous vote on the issue. There were a couple who voted not to extend the invite after a lengthy discussion on one main area-graduate level academics. After much discussion, some of the presidents were convinced that, in the short term the weak grad program at ND would "pull down" the conference, but in time, the other institutions could help bring ND up to snuff. Still, there were a couple of presidents who couldn't be convinced.

Despite all of this, I still think ND is the best fit. Deep down, I think ND knows that as well. Maybe their current situation in searching for a new coach, with everyone turning them down, will open some Irish eyes to the simple fact that the "mystique" is gone. Being in the midwest's main conference and joining the storied programs in the conference is the best fit for them, but can they swallow some pride and approach the conference after rejecting the conference a few years ago? At this time ND needs to join the Big Ten much more than the Big Ten needs ND to join.

 

[Airspace]

A few points. The Big Ten headquarters is in Chicago. As mentioned, the Presidents are the ones to invite any institution to join the Big Ten (remember Bo being pissed that the AD's were not asked). Shortly after this Bo retired as AD because he then knew he had no real power. Notre Dame's faculty wanted to join, it was the students & alums with the athletic dept that did not to join. Notre Dame would add the most financially to any tv/media deal.

Schools outside of Notre Dame most mentioned are Rutgers, Missouri and Pittsburgh. All three are members of the AAU. First priority to being asked to join the Big Ten. Notre Dame would like to join the AAU and would use the Big Ten to attain this (why faculty would like to join Big Ten).

If and when the Big Ten expands, do not expect anyone to know in advance. It will be like when Penn State was added, no one knew until it was a done deal. Even if the Big Ten expands, who is to say that they will authorize a championship game. It is the Presidents that run this conference not the AD's.

I remember prior to Penn State joining the conference that Joe Paterno wanted to join a conference. He said that by joining a conference they would reduced the financial risk if the football team had an off year or two. I think the same will be true for Notre Dame. When the Big Ten and Notre Dame reviewed the situation a few years ago, Notre Dame came away with the conclusion that joining or being independent would be a wash. Independence was key to their alums/students/athletic dept but at some point push will become pull. Financially instability will require that they join a conference to regain stability.

 

[buckeyegrad]

What is slightly off in your post is that ND is currently not a good academic fit for the Big Ten. They have a good undergraduate program, but their graduate school is not very good at all.

You are correct, ND is a stretch from an academic perspective and I should have left them off the list. Although an excellent undergraduate institution, their graduate and professional schools are not really at the Big Ten level. If I remember correctly, the last time ND was being considered for the Big Ten, a faculty governing body (don't know if it was the Senate or not) voted 25-3 in favor of it due to the elevation of academic prestige membership would bring. I also remember hearing other Big Ten schools raising doubts about ND's status.

As for Penn State, I have to believe it was an excellent move for them to join the Big Ten, especially for the academic prestige that comes with being a member of the CIC. Again, recalling from memory, I believe one of the biggest reasons Paterno supported Penn State joining the Big Ten was for the academic prestige it would bring the school.

As for those who try to suggest Pitt, Louisville, or any university in Ohio, you really need to think about the academic issue. None of these schools have the graduate programs, professional schools, or research to qualify them for the academic Big Ten and since this is a primary concern, along with money and public exposure, for the Council of Presidents you need to account for it when making suggestions.

Maybe I place too much value on the Big Ten schools, but when it comes to the three areas of graduate programs, professional schools, and research I would place them as a group as second only to the Ivy League Schools.

Though I do not favor expansion at this time, if it is going to happen, Syracuse seems to make more and more sense when considering both the academic and athletic perspectives.

 

[AKAK]

I think the same will be true for Notre Dame. When the Big Ten and Notre Dame reviewed the situation a few years ago, Notre Dame came away with the conclusion that joining or being independent would be a wash. Independence was key to their alums/students/athletic dept but at some point push will become pull. Financially instability will require that they join a conference to regain stability.

Nope- Not as long as they have NBC.

That's another thing that I think gets overlooked in this Ty WIllingham discussion... is not only is there all the pressure from boosters... students etc... but NBC pays them an assload of cash... to win... and they jsut did that "maybe we'll join the ACC" rumor headfake last year to re-up their deal... I'm sure "assurances were made" at the meeting to negotiatie the contract... I'm sure NBC would like Notre Dame to make good on those assurances... as I imagine that they would like USC/ND to be interesting next year in South Bend.