HOF: Who Gets In Today?

[AKAK]

AKAK: "Sutter... maybe... though he sort of built the position."

Also invented the Split Finger Fastball .. pretty important contribution to the game, don't you think?

"Let's get Lee Smith, Rivera, John Franco, Trevor Hoffman into this discussion and benchmark "Closer" from there."

None of those guys belong in the Hall except for the Great One, who will be a first ballott inductee. I think the only exclusive Reliever who would make it as such .. unless Fingers was as well.
.

I think the employment of the Splitter... (He didn't invent it) is actually part of the credit of developing the short reliever position, in my opinion... at very least in that it helped him pitch in that role. So is it important, sure... but a coupel gusy used the spltter before him? Who? I'm not exaclty sure, except to say they aren't on the ballot.

Anyway... I'm not saying all those guys should or shouldn't be in... I'm just saying thats the group we should be making the argument from (and yes, maybe Fingers too, and maybe Gossage.)

I don't know if it's easy to be a closer considering there's only a handful of reliable closers out there. Look at the Dodgers last year for instance...Gagne goes down and Brozaban puts up a 5.11 with only 21 saves. A healthy Gagne gives them the division title.

Yes, but any number of guys could have replaced Gagne and probably got them the division title... they just didn't happen to be Dodgers.

Bob Wickman?

I would say that maybe we need to start with this group and then maybe include the idea that Closers jsut aren't going to be as durable, as well. I just think the great starter-- over time-- who is going to be a hall of famer is a much more rare talent than a great closer. Think Randy Johnson would have had any trouble closing 50 games for a reasonably good team. John Smoltz? Oh, wait, he did. Pedro? Clemens?

 

[Thump]

Plus, Mattingly has a batting title, an MVP, 6 All-Star selections, 9 Gold Gloves, and 3 Silver Sluggers. None of which Will the Thrill has ..

Clark won a Gold Glove in 1991, was a 6 time All-Star (88-94), 2 Silver Sluggers (89 & 91.)

Any other false info. you want to spew forth?

 

[AKAK]

You wanna bet?

Clark:

BA: .303
HR: 284
RBI: 1205
Hits: 2176

Mattingly:

BA: .307
HR: 222
RBI: 1099
Hits:2153

Clark played 1 more season than Mattingly.

Hmmm... all those numbers are very Cecil Cooper-esque.

 

[DaytonBuck]

I'm too young to ever seen Sutter or Goose but what makes Sutter that much more worthy of induction?

 

[Sloopy45]

Thump: "And that says what?"

That's a reply to this: "And also on a team that didn't have a DH."

No big deal. Just thought I'd post it.

But, other than piling your career totals crap, lets look at the numbers:

200 Hit Seasons:

Clark: 0
Mattingly: 3 (238, 211, 207)

Top Three BA Seasons:

Clark: 1.) .333, 2.) .329, & 3.) .326 (and those last 2 seasons Clark only played in 110 games)
Mattingly: 1.) .352, 2.) .343, & 3.) .327 (all in full seasons of at least 141 games)

100 RBI Seasons:

Clark: 4 (116, 111, 109, & 102)
Mattingly: 5 (145, 115, 113, 113, & 110)

30 HR Seasons:

Clark: 1 (35)
Mattingly: 3 (35, 31, 30)

100 Run Seasons:

Clark: 2 (104 & 102)
Mattingly: 2 (117 & 107)

40 Doubles Seasons:

Clark: 2 (41 & 40)
Mattingly: 4 (53, 48, 44, & 40)

And not just the amounts. Look at the career highs. 53 2B vs 41, .352 AVG vs .333, 238 Hits vs 196, 145 RBI vs 116. He DWARFS Clark in every area.

Clark was a compiler.

 

[Thump]

Thump: "And that says what?"

That's a reply to this: "And also on a team that didn't have a DH."

No big deal. Just thought I'd post it.

But, other than piling your career totals crap, lets look at the numbers:

200 Hit Seasons:

Clark: 0
Mattingly: 3 (238, 211, 207)

Top Three BA Seasons:

Clark: 1.) .333, 2.) .329, & 3.) .326 (and those last 2 seasons Clark only played in 110 games)
Mattingly: 1.) .352, 2.) .343, & 3.) .327 (all in full seasons of at least 141 games)

100 RBI Seasons:

Clark: 4 (116, 111, 109, & 102)
Mattingly: 5 (145, 115, 113, 113, & 110)

30 HR Seasons:

Clark: 1 (35)
Mattingly: 3 (35, 31, 30)

100 Run Seasons:

Clark: 2 (104 & 102)
Mattingly: 2 (117 & 107)

40 Doubles Seasons:

Clark: 2 (41 & 40)
Mattingly: 4 (53, 48, 44, & 40)

And not just the amounts. Look at the career highs. 53 2B vs 41, .352 AVG vs .333, 238 Hits vs 196, 145 RBI vs 116. He DWARFS Clark in every area.

Clark was a compiler.

Is this a fucking joke?

First off, the DH reference was that Clark didn't have the protection of a DH. Still don't understand you r response.

Second, what do you think people look at when comparing players, career stats, not # of 40 double seasons.

I'm sure I can twist the numbers to make Will's look more impressive.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

Is this a fucking joke?

First off, the DH reference was that Clark didn't have the protection of a DH. Still don't understand you r response.

Second, what do you think people look at when comparing players, career stats, not # of 40 double seasons.

I'm sure I can twist the numbers to make Will's look more impressive.

Will the Thrill had five seasons with at least 5 triples. Donnie Baseball had zero.

 

[Sloopy45]

Thump: "First off, the DH reference was that Clark didn't have the protection of a DH. Still don't understand you r response."

Then ignore it. I just threw it out there. Doesn't really matter either way.

"Second, what do you think people look at when comparing players, career stats, not # of 40 double seasons."

hate to break it to you, but unless those two players in question played the same amount of games, comparing career totals is meaningless.

Mattingly's was 100 times better than Clark in his prime, and the numbers bear that out.

And secondly, you throw out all this crap and then respons to nothing: tell me why Clark played in 191 more games than Donny and could only muster 23 more hits in his career? Clark played in 191 more games and had 106 more RBI than Mattingly.

Mattingly's career highs, numbers, and prime, and awards blow Clark out of the water. Where's Clark's MVP? Where's his batting title?

Oh, that's right, I forgot: you posted their career totals. My bad. Way to back up your argument.

 

[Golferdow01]

Here's hoping that Donny Baseball gets in.

I agree. I don't have stats to back it up as I was just growing up when he played, but he was my baseball hero as a kid. I love having him still associated with the Yankees.

 

[Thump]

Mattingly's career highs, numbers, and prime, and awards blow Clark out of the water. Where's Clark's MVP? Where's his batting title?

Sloop,

You said Mattingly's #'s were "WAY, WAY, WAY better" and I showed you they weren't so then you start digging up awards and then are proven wrong again.

Please someone, if I'm incorrect here, I'll eat my crow.

How about just admitting you were incorrect in your assumptions and move on?

Oh, that's right, I forgot: you posted their career totals. My bad. Way to back up your argument.

For a guy who supposedly knows alot about baseball, you sure are stupid.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

Thump: "First off, the DH reference was that Clark didn't have the protection of a DH. Still don't understand you r response."

Then ignore it. I just threw it out there. Doesn't really matter either way.

"Second, what do you think people look at when comparing players, career stats, not # of 40 double seasons."

hate to break it to you, but unless those two players in question played the same amount of games, comparing career totals is meaningless.

Mattingly's was 100 times better than Clark in his prime, and the numbers bear that out.

And secondly, you throw out all this crap and then respons to nothing: tell me why Clark played in 191 more games than Donny and could only muster 23 more hits in his career? Clark played in 191 more games and had 106 more RBI than Mattingly.

Mattingly's career highs, numbers, and prime, and awards blow Clark out of the water. Where's Clark's MVP? Where's his batting title?

Oh, that's right, I forgot: you posted their career totals. My bad. Way to back up your argument.

Here are their numbers prorated over 162 games:

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BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 30pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=40>RUNS</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 40pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=53 x:str="HITS"> HITS </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 28pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=37 x:str="2Bs"> 2Bs </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 22pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=29>3Bs</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 23pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=30>HRS</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 22pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=29>RBI</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 18pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=24>SB</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 18pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=24>CS</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 19pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=25>BB</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 18pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=24>KO</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 32pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=42>AVG</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 32pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=42>OBP</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; 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BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=34>GIDP</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 11.25pt" height=15><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; HEIGHT: 11.25pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=15>Mattingly</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>636</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>91</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>195</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>40</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>20</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>100</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>53</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>40</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.307">0.307</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.35799999999999998">0.358</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.47099999999999997">0.471</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>300</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>12</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>17</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 11.25pt" height=15><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; HEIGHT: 11.25pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=15>Clark</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>588</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>97</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>178</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>36</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>23</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>99</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>77</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>98</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.30299999999999999">0.303</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.38400000000000001">0.384</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.497">0.497</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>292</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>13</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-TOP: #c0c0c0; BORDER-LEFT: #c0c0c0; BORDER-BOTTOM: #c0c0c0; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>8</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Fairly comparable.

 

[Brutus1]

54 home runs .345 ba, 160 rbi's



21 hr, .260 ba, 82 rbi's



Now, there is an example of WAY,WAY,WAY better.


Is it Clarks' fault Donnie baseball had a bad back? Stay healthy and you can play more games.

 

[Brutus1]

Sloop,

You said Mattingly's #'s were "WAY, WAY, WAY better" and I showed you they weren't so then you start digging up awards and then are proven wrong again.

Please someone, if I'm incorrect here, I'll eat my crow.

How about just admitting you were incorreect in your assumptions and move on?



For a guy who supposedly knows alot about baseball, you sure are stupid.

Thump. You're a homo..........oops incorrect.
Hammer , meet nail.

 

[AKAK]

Oh, who gives a shit... the primary difference is that Clark is a cocksucker and Mattingly was well... Donnie Baseball. I hate them both.

Like I said... they are Cecil Cooperesque numbers.

None of the three should be even sniffing Cooperstown.

 

[Brutus1]

Donny doesn't belong in the Hall, however, his numbers are WAY, WAY, WAY better than Will Clark. Its not even close.

This quote started it all. Clearly, his numbers are not way, way, way better. That's all that Thump is saying.


On a side note, as much as I hate the Yankees, Mattingly was always my favorite Yank.