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- Thread starter osugrad21
- Start date
That's a reason to love Pete. The guy would run over his own mother to win a ball game.
I never understood when it became cool to not care if you won the all-star game or not.
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Agreed...I loved the way Rose played. Then again, my favorite player of all-time is Tyrus Raymond Cobb.
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I would give you greenies for that but already did today. I know tyrus3 will be liking that.
So you're into racists who stabbed people?
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Jim Rice needs to be in there. Guy was one of, if not the most feared hitter in the AL for a decade. He put up some huge numbers in the pre "juiced ball" era.
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1974 21 BOS AL 24 67 6 18 2 1 1 13 0 0 4 12 .269 .307 .373 25 0 3 0 1 2
1975 22 BOS AL 144 564 92 174 29 4 22 102 10 5 36 122 .309 .350 .491 277 1 8 7 4 19
1976 23 BOS AL 153 581 75 164 25 8 25 85 8 5 28 123 .282 .315 .482 280 2 9 2 4 18
1977 24 BOS AL 160 644 104 206 29 15 39 114 5 4 53 120 .320 .376 .593 382 0 5 10 8 21
1978 25 BOS AL 163 677 121 213 25 15 46 139 7 5 58 126 .315 .370 .600 406 1 5 7 5 15
1979 26 BOS AL 158 619 117 201 39 6 39 130 9 4 57 97 .325 .381 .596 369 0 8 4 4 16
1980 27 BOS AL 124 504 81 148 22 6 24 86 8 3 30 87 .294 .336 .504 254 1 3 5 4 16
1981 28 BOS AL 108 451 51 128 18 1 17 62 2 2 34 76 .284 .333 .441 199 0 7 3 3 14
1982 29 BOS AL 145 573 86 177 24 5 24 97 0 1 55 98 .309 .375 .494 283 0 3 6 7 29
1983 30 BOS AL 155 626 90 191 34 1 39 126 0 2 52 102 .305 .361 .550 344 0 5 10 6 31
1984 31 BOS AL 159 657 98 184 25 7 28 122 4 0 44 102 .280 .323 .467 307 0 6 8 1 36
1985 32 BOS AL 140 546 85 159 20 3 27 103 2 0 51 75 .291 .349 .487 266 0 9 5 2 35
1986 33 BOS AL 157 618 98 200 39 2 20 110 0 1 62 78 .324 .384 .490 303 0 9 5 4 19
1987 34 BOS AL 108 404 66 112 14 0 13 62 1 1 45 77 .277 .357 .408 165 0 3 3 7 22
1988 35 BOS AL 135 485 57 128 18 3 15 72 1 1 48 89 .264 .330 .406 197 0 6 2 3 18
1989 36 BOS AL 56 209 22 49 10 2 3 28 1 0 13 39 .234 .276 .344 72 0 5 0 1 4
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
16 Seasons 8225 2452 79 1451 34 1423 .298 .352 .502 5 94 77 64 315
2089 1249 373 382 58 670 4129
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
162 Game Avg 638 97 190 29 6 30 113 4 3 52 110 .298 .352 .502 320 0 7 6 5 24
Career High 163 677 121 213 39 15 46 139 10 5 62 126 .325 .384 .600 406 2 9 10 8 36
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1974 21 BOS AL 24 67 6 18 2 1 1 13 0 0 4 12 .269 .307 .373 25 0 3 0 1 2
1975 22 BOS AL 144 564 92 174 29 4 22 102 10 5 36 122 .309 .350 .491 277 1 8 7 4 19
1976 23 BOS AL 153 581 75 164 25 8 25 85 8 5 28 123 .282 .315 .482 280 2 9 2 4 18
1977 24 BOS AL 160 644 104 206 29 15 39 114 5 4 53 120 .320 .376 .593 382 0 5 10 8 21
1978 25 BOS AL 163 677 121 213 25 15 46 139 7 5 58 126 .315 .370 .600 406 1 5 7 5 15
1979 26 BOS AL 158 619 117 201 39 6 39 130 9 4 57 97 .325 .381 .596 369 0 8 4 4 16
1980 27 BOS AL 124 504 81 148 22 6 24 86 8 3 30 87 .294 .336 .504 254 1 3 5 4 16
1981 28 BOS AL 108 451 51 128 18 1 17 62 2 2 34 76 .284 .333 .441 199 0 7 3 3 14
1982 29 BOS AL 145 573 86 177 24 5 24 97 0 1 55 98 .309 .375 .494 283 0 3 6 7 29
1983 30 BOS AL 155 626 90 191 34 1 39 126 0 2 52 102 .305 .361 .550 344 0 5 10 6 31
1984 31 BOS AL 159 657 98 184 25 7 28 122 4 0 44 102 .280 .323 .467 307 0 6 8 1 36
1985 32 BOS AL 140 546 85 159 20 3 27 103 2 0 51 75 .291 .349 .487 266 0 9 5 2 35
1986 33 BOS AL 157 618 98 200 39 2 20 110 0 1 62 78 .324 .384 .490 303 0 9 5 4 19
1987 34 BOS AL 108 404 66 112 14 0 13 62 1 1 45 77 .277 .357 .408 165 0 3 3 7 22
1988 35 BOS AL 135 485 57 128 18 3 15 72 1 1 48 89 .264 .330 .406 197 0 6 2 3 18
1989 36 BOS AL 56 209 22 49 10 2 3 28 1 0 13 39 .234 .276 .344 72 0 5 0 1 4
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
16 Seasons 8225 2452 79 1451 34 1423 .298 .352 .502 5 94 77 64 315
2089 1249 373 382 58 670 4129
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
162 Game Avg 638 97 190 29 6 30 113 4 3 52 110 .298 .352 .502 320 0 7 6 5 24
Career High 163 677 121 213 39 15 46 139 10 5 62 126 .325 .384 .600 406 2 9 10 8 36
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sears3820
Sitting around in my underwear....
As a knucklehead Red Sox fan, I wanna make more of a case for Rice.
As I said earlier, spanning 12 years (1975-86) Rice led all American League players in 12 different offensive categories, including home runs (350), RBI (1,276), total bases (3,670), slugging percentage (.520), runs (1,098) and hits (2,145). And when you add in all of the National League players from the same era, Rice still leads in five categories and finishes second in three others.
In addition to winning the AL MVP in 1978, Rice finished in the top five in AL MVP voting five other times. He led the AL in homers three times and twice led the league in RBI.
A little historical perspective.... among all major leaguers, only nine players have compiled as high a career batting average (.298) and as many homers. They are: Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Mel Ott, Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays and Stan Musial. They're all hall of famers. Rice should be too.
Rice was 18 homers shy of 400 and he's 2 points shy of batting .300 for his career. It's been said that had Rice reached these marks, he would automatically get in. Benchmarks are constantly changing though. I think he's done enough to punch his ticket to Cooperstown.
As I said earlier, spanning 12 years (1975-86) Rice led all American League players in 12 different offensive categories, including home runs (350), RBI (1,276), total bases (3,670), slugging percentage (.520), runs (1,098) and hits (2,145). And when you add in all of the National League players from the same era, Rice still leads in five categories and finishes second in three others.
In addition to winning the AL MVP in 1978, Rice finished in the top five in AL MVP voting five other times. He led the AL in homers three times and twice led the league in RBI.
A little historical perspective.... among all major leaguers, only nine players have compiled as high a career batting average (.298) and as many homers. They are: Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Mel Ott, Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays and Stan Musial. They're all hall of famers. Rice should be too.
Rice was 18 homers shy of 400 and he's 2 points shy of batting .300 for his career. It's been said that had Rice reached these marks, he would automatically get in. Benchmarks are constantly changing though. I think he's done enough to punch his ticket to Cooperstown.
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Thanks for saving me some time, after reading that, I knew not to read the rest of the post.
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Sears, how much do you think Rice's reputation for not being a media-friendly player has hurt him?
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harrydangler
All-American
Bruce Sutter, The Goose, Andre Dawson, and Bert Blyleven. I think Sutter and Gossage are pretty obvious in regards to their impact on the closer position. The voters have screwed over the closer position for too long and need to stick these guys in this year before it gets too tough starting next year.
<O:p
It just blows my mind why <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City>Dawson</st1:City> hasn't garnered over 52.3 percent of the votes. Only Mays and Bonds have more Hits, HR's, and Steals as <st1:City><ST1:pDawson</st1:City>. Throw in the fact he played on the worst set of knees known to man and it has to count into the "heart" category that voters seem to love. <O:p
Blyleven is another guy that’s getting screwed. He's 5th all time in strikeouts (retired at 3rd), top 10 in ERA 10 times in his career, 9th all time in shutouts, and fell just 13 wins shy of 300 Wins. If anyone has read Bill James "Hardball Times Baseball Annual 2006," James does a breakdown of Blyleven's career and shows he had the 2nd worst run support of any pitcher in his era (thanks Jason Stark for the info...good article read it here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2283084). <O:p
Aside from the above mentioned, I struggle with putting Jim Rice in the Hall. He had such a huge impact for about 10 years but then fell off the face of the earth. If you put him in, you're almost obligated to put Albert Belle in because of a similar situation (albeit Belle's was due to injury…not sure why Rice fell apart). <O:p
I love Dale Murphy and he's one of the classiest guys to ever play the game but he's missing something too. From 1980 to 1987 he was one of, if not the, most dominant players in the game. Before and after his stats are pretty dreadful for a HOF'er. I also have issues with his .265 batting average and 1700 strikeouts. Reggie had a lot of K's but he made up for it in several other areas that Dale can't quite accomplish.
One of my favorite players of all time Will Clark just falls short. He had a fabulous start but injuries took their toll. When he was healthy, I think he was one of the best players of that generation. He hustled, hit in the clutch, hit for average, decent power, solid defense, and was one of the best gamers I've had the pleasure to watch. His 1989 performance against the Cubs in the NLCS is the one of the most dominating performances I've ever seen. I just hope he gets enough votes to hang around on the ballot for a while...that’s the least he deserves. <O:p
In closing, after the longest post I've ever had on Buckeye Planet, I'd like to mention Peter Edward Rose. If some of the steroid players of this era get elected to the Hall of Fame, I'll be completely disgusted if Rose is not elected soon after. Rose, in no way, shape, or form changed the course of his career by any of his actions off the field. I can see the argument for and against his induction into the Hall but if players who altered their career statistics on the field go in, I see absolutely no reason why Rose shouldn't be fast tracked onto the podium to give his induction speech.
EDITED FOR SPELLING
<O:p
It just blows my mind why <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City>Dawson</st1:City> hasn't garnered over 52.3 percent of the votes. Only Mays and Bonds have more Hits, HR's, and Steals as <st1:City><ST1:pDawson</st1:City>. Throw in the fact he played on the worst set of knees known to man and it has to count into the "heart" category that voters seem to love. <O:p
Blyleven is another guy that’s getting screwed. He's 5th all time in strikeouts (retired at 3rd), top 10 in ERA 10 times in his career, 9th all time in shutouts, and fell just 13 wins shy of 300 Wins. If anyone has read Bill James "Hardball Times Baseball Annual 2006," James does a breakdown of Blyleven's career and shows he had the 2nd worst run support of any pitcher in his era (thanks Jason Stark for the info...good article read it here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2283084). <O:p
Aside from the above mentioned, I struggle with putting Jim Rice in the Hall. He had such a huge impact for about 10 years but then fell off the face of the earth. If you put him in, you're almost obligated to put Albert Belle in because of a similar situation (albeit Belle's was due to injury…not sure why Rice fell apart). <O:p
I love Dale Murphy and he's one of the classiest guys to ever play the game but he's missing something too. From 1980 to 1987 he was one of, if not the, most dominant players in the game. Before and after his stats are pretty dreadful for a HOF'er. I also have issues with his .265 batting average and 1700 strikeouts. Reggie had a lot of K's but he made up for it in several other areas that Dale can't quite accomplish.
One of my favorite players of all time Will Clark just falls short. He had a fabulous start but injuries took their toll. When he was healthy, I think he was one of the best players of that generation. He hustled, hit in the clutch, hit for average, decent power, solid defense, and was one of the best gamers I've had the pleasure to watch. His 1989 performance against the Cubs in the NLCS is the one of the most dominating performances I've ever seen. I just hope he gets enough votes to hang around on the ballot for a while...that’s the least he deserves. <O:p
In closing, after the longest post I've ever had on Buckeye Planet, I'd like to mention Peter Edward Rose. If some of the steroid players of this era get elected to the Hall of Fame, I'll be completely disgusted if Rose is not elected soon after. Rose, in no way, shape, or form changed the course of his career by any of his actions off the field. I can see the argument for and against his induction into the Hall but if players who altered their career statistics on the field go in, I see absolutely no reason why Rose shouldn't be fast tracked onto the podium to give his induction speech.
EDITED FOR SPELLING
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harrydangler
All-American
I can't find the article on this but I read recently that Rice actually receives most of his votes from people that covered him on a regular basis. I'll see if I can find it and post it later today.
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JXC
17-4 since 2001
The hall is a joke until Pete is in there. Just a personal feeling. You know though...part of me doesn't mind if Rose doesn't get in until he dies...because he doesn't deserve it, the fans do. Pete Rose the man...not impressive to me. Pete Rose the baseball player...everything I strive for. Talk about passion. Wow.
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sears3820
Sitting around in my underwear....
It certainly could have played a part in him not getting in thus far, but I don't buy it. I like what Ken Rosenthal's thoughts on the matter....
Covering the Orioles for The (Baltimore) Sun, I had a terrible relationship with Murray; he once threatened to sue me. I still voted for him for the Hall, and he was elected on the first ballot with 85.2 percent of the vote. Most writers I know take their Hall vote far too seriously to use it for petty retribution.
The Hall instructs voters to consider "character, integrity and sportsmanship." Murray exhibited all of those qualities without talking to the media. Rice was said to be churlish, and not all of his teammates liked him. But unlike, say, Albert Belle, he never embarrassed the sport. His character is a non-issue, or at least it should be.
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Well... I don't think Donny baseball gets in the "Hall of Fame according to Sloops" at least as it relates to non-yankees.
Anyway... I'm with you on this one.
Sutter... maybe... though he sort of built the position.
Dawson wouldn't hurt my feelings... but he's a compiler, not a great player.
The Closer position gets screwed for a reason... its not that hard to be one.
Rich Gossage was 9-17 in his only season as a full time starter... Not to take anything away from Mariano Rivera... but he essentially has one pitch. Most all these guys only have two. You can't get through a batting order twice on two pitches... or overpower for 3 innnings... whatever it would take.
Point is that, I dont' put gooden or Hershiser in the Hall, and they are the most talented pitchers on the list...
Let's get Lee Smith, Rivera, John Franco, Trevor Hoffman into this discussion and benchmark "Closer" from there.
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