Do you think Mark McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame?

[harrydangler]

All interesting thoughts...perhaps a real measuring point will be the result of Fred McGriff. He hit almost 500 HRs, was a decent fielder and a good hitter in general, and he is widely regarded as having been clean during that era. If you look at numbers alone within that era, he doesn't measure up, but it will be interesting to see what kind of play he does or doesn't get.

Good call on McGriff...steady producer who's about as clean as you can get in that era. He's gonna get the shaft come Hall time because he didn't shoot up. Granted he wasn't dominant like most hall of famers but he may have looked more dominant if he was playing the same game as everyone else.

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

Will Clark didn't make the cut last year so he's off the ballot. I doubt Mattingly will at this rate...maybe with the Vet's committee in 10 years. I don't think he's cracked 60% has he?

I agree..the entire Hall of Fame process is one big mess. I'd put Pete Rose in the hall in two seconds. Gambling isn't nearly as detrimental to the game as steroids.

My problem with McGwire is that I think he's borderline Hall worthy with steroids...so that makes him a big question mark assuming he did it. Bonds on the other hand would be in the hall whether he did steroids or not. Palmeiro's just an all around jerk off who shouldn't even sniff the hall.

I think Will Clark will make the Hall....He has been one of the best 1st baseman in my lifetime....Palmerio doesn't deserve the Hall. Yea he has 500 HR which is a "given stat" for Hall entry. The only thing Palmerio has for him is he has one of the sweetest swings I have ever seen. I didagree with you on mark though. I think he is Hall caliber. Yea he probably did 'roids, but we will never know for sure. He is one of the greatest HR hitters of our time. And what he did for baseball back in '98 is something I will never forget. I know thats not something for consideration for the Hall but I had to put that in.

Ok now you are saying that 'roids is detrimental to the game. What about throwing games....That is very detrimental to the game....Joe Jackson isn;t in the Hall and he is agruably one of the greatest players of all-time....:)

 

[OH10]

Hell, Michael Jordan wouldnt be that good if you took away his 30, 000 points.

You can't pad an argument with this and not lose credibility.

 

[harrydangler]

I think Will Clark will make the Hall....He has been one of the best 1st baseman in my lifetime....

He can't make the hall...he missed the cut last year so he's off the ballot forever.

Ok now you are saying that 'roids is detrimental to the game. What about throwing games....That is very detrimental to the game....Joe Jackson isn;t in the Hall and he is agruably one of the greatest players of all-time....:)

Throwing games was detrimental to the game back in the 20's, 30's 40's etc...but now every scrub is pulling down 500K a year. If you're throwing a game b/c you can't get by on that type of scratch then you have issues. The gambling rule is antiquated in todays game.

Steroids on the other hand effects the sport on many levels starting with the records books.

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

He can't make the hall...he missed the cut last year so he's off the ballot forever.



Throwing games was detrimental to the game back in the 20's, 30's 40's etc...but now every scrub is pulling down 500K a year. If you're throwing a game b/c you can't get by on that type of scratch then you have issues. The gambling rule is antiquated in todays game.

Steroids on the other hand effects the sport on many levels starting with the records books.

That I didn't know about Will....thats a shame....

I understand that throwing games isn't an issue anymore because of the salaries...I was just trying to make a comparision.....but there is a connection between throwing games and 'roids....they are different eras....the record books have been effect because of both....

 

[harrydangler]

I understand that throwing games isn't an issue anymore because of the salaries...I was just trying to make a comparision.....but there is a connection between throwing games and 'roids....they are different eras....the record books have been effect because of both....

You've got a good point on the connection. I still think steroids would have a larger effect on the record books than gambling though. I doubt many players were making big money on throwing a regular season game in June against a last place team whereas anyone on roids is having a 3 homer game in that same situation.

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

You've got a good point on the connection. I still think steroids would have a larger effect on the record books than gambling though. I doubt many players were making big money on throwing a regular season game in June against a last place team whereas anyone on roids is having a 3 homer game in that same situation.

good point....although I brought up the gambling topic I agree with you that its not really a problem anymore, but 'roids are......after reading both of our arguements on the topic I think we can both come to the conclusion that we are both right...

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Uh...well, Foster hit 52, then followed that with 40 the next year. In fact, his 5 year #s were 29, 52, 40, 30, 25. Anderson hit 52 in between years of 16 and 18, and only hit as many as 20 in 2 other seasons (21 and 24). So if you want to think that Anderson just magically found double power in the height of the "supposed" steroid era, go ahead, but I can't seem to see that myself. As for Foster, he hit 50 one season, which was huge back then, but good power hitters of that era usually tallyed between 25 and 40, and he was within that for at least half a dozen seasons.

One other interesting tidbit about the "eras"...Foster that year hit 52, drove in 149, stole 6 bases, walked 61 times, hit .320, had 33 other extra base hits and ran away with the MVP award. Anderson hit 50, drove in 110, stole 21 bases, walked 76 times, hit about.300 and had 42 additional extra base hits and finished 9th in the MVP voting...seem a bit strange to you?

BL - Yeah, I know, but it's the best I could come up with giving it only 5 minutes of thought.

Let me ask you this, if Anderson juiced up for his big year, what made him not juice up again? I don't recall him ever getting busted for it.

 

[tyrus]

Has nothing to do with being thin-skinned...it has to do with not wasting my time arguing with people who resort to insults instead of debating a point with dialogue. Then after saying everyone that didn't agree that McGwire is God is ignorant, you threw Greg Maddux into a steroid argument. I wasn't offended, I just felt it didn't really require further comment.

Come on Buck, where did I say he was God? I will help with this, I didnt....in fact, it isnt even that big of deal to me, I am just offering a different POV.....with facts. I am guessing you didnt read much of my posts that had info and comparisons to his peers. How is that not debating a point with dialogue. Get over yourself. IMO, it is ignorant, or uninformed to say MM was a terrible fielder when there are facts showing he was a very good defensive player. And to say "well, take away his HRs and hes nothing" is in the same boat. You can say that about 100s of players (different stats). There is no dispute he was a power hitter, but you cant take that away from him...thats what he was...and he was one of the best, no matter when he played.

You can't pad an argument with this and not lose credibility.

Stadium...what in the hell are talking about? You said the exact samething about MM and you were serious! I was making a point of how ridiculous it sounds to say "lets take away his 500 HRs and see how good he is"

You are something else.

So have you compared his numbers to his peers yet?

 

[Thump]

If any of you know a lick about baseball you'll notice that many hall of fame home-run hitters don't have batting avgs. over .300

I think the info. tyrus provided speaks for itself.

Did any of you guys even read it?

 

[BayBuck]

You can't pad an argument with this and not lose credibility.

How about we just take away all MJ's dunks? :!

 

[Thump]

Interesting point, and if you cancel the power numbers (strikeouts and home runs, for example) out then, McGwire has...1600 hits? Not even close to HOF.

Quite possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

If any of you know a lick about baseball you'll notice that many hall of fame home-run hitters don't have batting avgs. over .300

I think the info. tyrus provided speaks for itself.

Did any of you guys even read it?

The top 4 (Sosa is #5, and fuck him) all time HR hitters all have avg at or above .300, but your point is correct.. especially considering today's "modern" power hitter, who swings for the fences enough to wiff half the time. Conversely big average guys don't go yard. In the top 7 avg. all time, Ted Williams is the only guy above 500 HRs, and one of two (Rogers Hornsby, 301) above 120 HR for a career. I mention this to sorta support the whole "you can't take away a guy's HRs and compare his Hall numbers." argument. Slap hitter hit slap hits and get high Avg. It's an important part of the game, but if you take away their non HR hits, they don't stand up as hall worthy. Likewise, a HR hitter might not hit for high average, but he's still an important part of the game (last I looked HRs drove in runs, runs win baseball games) and you can't simply take em away and say, "See without the long ball this dude sucks"

Fact is, the game includes the long ball... and it's an important part of the game.

Take away Ty Cobb's singles, and he has 1136 hits. Not even close to hall worthy.

 

[Thump]

The top 4 (Sosa is #5, and fuck him) all time HR hitters all have avg at or above .300, but your point is correct.. especially considering today's "modern" power hitter, who swings for the fences enough to wiff half the time. Conversely big average guys don't go yard. In the top 7 avg. all time, Ted Williams is the only guy above 500 HRs, and one of two (Rogers Hornsby, 301) above 120 HR for a career. I mention this to sorta support the whole "you can't take away a guy's HRs and compare his Hall numbers." argument. Slap hitter hit slap hits and get high Avg. It's an important part of the game, but if you take away their non HR hits, they don't stand up as hall worthy. Likewise, a HR hitter might not hit for high average, but he's still an important part of the game (last I looked HRs drove in runs, runs win baseball games) and you can't simply take em away and say, "See without the long ball this dude sucks"

Fact is, the game includes the long ball... and it's an important part of the game.

Good points.

And Bucklion saying that taking away McGwire's homers doesn't even come close to Bond's. Well shit, Bonds is arguably one of the two or three best players in baseball history.

Of course his stats won't compare.

We're not saying McGwire belongs in that echelon of player.

 

[OH10]

Stadium...what in the hell are talking about? You said the exact samething about MM and you were serious! I was making a point of how ridiculous it sounds to say "lets take away his 500 HRs and see how good he is"

You are something else.

So have you compared his numbers to his peers yet?

I never said, "take away his 500 HRs and see how good he is." I recognize that the homers are his credentials for the Hall - but they are his only credentials. I just don't find his numbers to be all that compelling considering the factors which allowed him to hit so many. If he had something else on his resume... like, I don't know, "great ambassador of the game".... maybe that would be sufficient for me. But he and others like him have had a terrible impact on the game and I fail to see how that is not important.

You can't use MJ as an example. It's absurd. That's where you lose credibility. His point totals are compelling. His leadership was compelling. His championships are beyond compelling. And, despite the fact that he had plenty of skeletons in his closet, he was a great ambassador of the game.

Sorry if I pointed out that your invocation of Michael Jordan was way of the mark.