Do you think Mark McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame?

[OH10]

Andro wasn't illegal.

Now if you are talking about other undisclosed roids, that's different.

Admittedly, I'm basing a majority of my opinion on his embarrassing Congressional testimony, but I think it's fairly clear that he used undisclosed steroids. In '98, they saw the Andro in his closet and he was up front about it. Then at the hearing, he dancing around the steroid question. I feel compelled to draw the conclusion that he used illegal steroids.

If you want a criminal level of proof, that's not present. But Hall of Fame criteria is subjective, so you've got to go-with-your-gut. And my gut is screaming on this one.

I look at the Hall of Fame as players who excelled while bettering the game of baseball.

Does Mark McGwire fit that criteria, yes.

I agree with your criteria, but I don't think his play reached any level of Hall of Fame excellence beyond inflated homer totals. Further, the positive impact of his chase in 1998 disappeared like a fart in the wind after his testimony before Congress.

 

[buckeyeboy]

Big Mac's only credentials for the Hall are his homer totals. And those are skewed by expansion, smaller parks, and steroids. He was, at best, a terrible fielder, couldn't hit for average, and a poor baserunner after his billion walks.

Bingo. The guy's career batting average is an unimpressive .263. If I had a vote, he wouldn't get it.

 

[heisman]

What if I have a problem with Gaylord Perry being in the Hall of Fame? Can I use the moral highground then without being labeled a hypocrite?

I didn't know that you had a vote. :)

Just to clarify, my post was not directed at you, but to the voters who are coming out against his selection. The same ones who voted for Perry.

Having said that, I will address what you have said about being against the law. This is not necessarily true. In fact, most of the supplements banned are quite legal and available over the counter. Also, you have the David Segui situation where he was legally using HGH. Now, you have the Adam LaRoche situation of currently being allowed to take banned substances. It seems there is no right or wrong here according to MLB, just shades of gray. And, if you think for a second MLB didn't know what was going on in the 90's, then you are really fooling yourself.

 

[tyrus]

No. It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Shame.

Big Mac's only credentials for the Hall are his homer totals. And those are skewed by expansion, smaller parks, and steroids. He was, at best, a terrible fielder, couldn't hit for average, and a poor baserunner after his billion walks.

By all accounts, he appeared to be an ambassador of good will, but by failing to apologize and preach about the health dangers of steroids, that good will is canceled out.

Character and credibility have to count for something, but even if I just based his resume on his numbers, I wouldn't vote him in.

Interesting point, and if you cancel the power numbers (strikeouts and home runs, for example) out then, McGwire has...1600 hits? Not even close to HOF. Unlike Bonds (who I also can't stand), without the extra HRs, McGwire is Rob Deer.

Ok, here we go.

To say take away is HRs and he was nothing is ignorant. So, lets take away Pete Rose and Ty Cobb's singles and see how many hits they have. He was a power hitter, not a singles hitter. Sorry, this argument is just ridiculous.

To say he was a terrible fielder is even more ignorant. Do some research before making outrageous statements. Keith Hernandez is considered one of the all-time defensive greats at 1B...guess what....MM has just as good as numbers. MM had 103 Es compared to KH 115. McGwire's FP is .993 and KH is at .994. I know there is a difference of 251 games, but MM would've had to boot every other ball to fall much. KH had 6 seasons with 10+ Es and MM had 5. Plus MM had a Gold Glove.

Here is a link to his numbers (great site)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

Compare his numbers to other HOF 1B. Perez, Killebrew, Greenberg, Mize, McCovey. McGwire more than holds his own. As I am typing this, I cant remeber who said he was a terrible fielder, but compare his fielding to the others. MM is at the top of the list. He was a very good defensive player.

MM was 12 time AS, 3 time SS and lead the league multiple times in major hitting categories, and was always in the top 2-3.

His numbers shouldnt be an issue, so for all of you moralists.....

let's get rid of Ruth for being an awful person, Cobb was a racist and clilmbed into the stands and beat up a handicap fan, Cepeda was CONVICTED of 2 drug trafficking charges, the owners were basically slave owners. The players had no rights, didnt get paid, and if they had dark skin, wasnt aloud to play. Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Matthewson, Wagner all had skewed stats b/c they didnt play against blacks or hispanics, or relief pitchers. The HOF is full of disgusting people, and all McGwire did was use Andro, WHICH WAS LEGAL!!! Everything else is speculation. George Brett cheated, Perry was a cheater.....why are they in? hypocracy is the answer.

My point is, all of these greats were a product of their time. These behaviors were accepted in those days, the same as performance enhancers in the 90s. If we keep McGwire out, then we have to keep out Clemens, Bonds, Maddux, Glavine and everyone else who played in the steroid era.

 

[BayBuck]

I for one only consider on-the-field exploits when talking about who belongs in the various Halls-of-Fame. McGwire was never penalized by his league/sport for steroids or whatever he probably used and was thus allowed to compete legally for his 15-year career. And it's not like he just had a few good enhancement-aided seasons: he had the highest career HR ratio in history, and the guy hit 49 as a rookie!

583 HR, 12 All-Stars, 1 WS does it for me. As for any "negative impact" on the game, IMO that great '98 summer chase was probably baseball's best time in the last decade at least.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Interesting point, and if you cancel the power numbers (strikeouts and home runs, for example) out then, McGwire has...1600 hits? Not even close to HOF. Unlike Bonds (who I also can't stand), without the extra HRs, McGwire is Rob Deer.

I dig what you're saying, but fact is you can't cancel out his HRs. He was a HR hitter and he ended up with a bunch of them.

Take away Harmon Killebrew's HRs and he has less than 1500 hits.
Take away Mantle's, he's at around 1900 hits.
Eddie Matthews, about 1800
Willie McCovy around 1700
Schmidt aroun 1650

McGwire, as someone mentioned, is actually closer to 1000 hits (non HR) which does seem to put him alone in power v. hits, I'll admit that. Still, HRs were his game and he did that at a very high level.

 

[buckeyeboy]

If we keep McGwire out, then we have to keep out Clemens, Bonds, Maddux, Glavine and everyone else who played in the steroid era.

I have no idea why you said we must keep out those bolded above. As for Bonds, I'm fine with keeping him out, and I'd imagine so are 99% of those saying McGwire has no business being in.

 

[OH10]

Ok, here we go.

To say take away is HRs and he was nothing is ignorant. So, lets take away Pete Rose and Ty Cobb's singles and see how many hits they have. He was a power hitter, not a singles hitter. Sorry, this argument is just ridiculous.

His homer totals are his criteria, and I think you would agree to that. Despite your excellent research into fielding statistics (which didn't take into account his lack of lateral movement, only his mistakes when he got to the ball), one Gold Glove does not a HOFer make. Therefore, as James Carville might say, "it's the homers stupid."

And the homers are not an accurate historical reflection. They are inflated. The 500 plateau is not the standard anymore. Therefore, more subjective factors need to be taken into account, like expansion, steroids and the smaller parks. All of those factors work against McGwire.

If McGwire didn't have 500 homers, he's not a legit candidate for the Hall. I don't see those numbers as a fair indication of his accomplishments, and therefore, his credentials are an issue even before you get to the obvious moral question.

let's get rid of Ruth for being an awful person, Cobb was a racist and clilmbed into the stands and beat up a handicap fan

Both had an impact on the game beyond measure and moved the game through decades of development. They were dicks, and I think that should be taken into account. But certainly, with hindsight, it's clear that their impact should be reflected in the Hall of Fame.

Cepeda was CONVICTED of 2 drug trafficking charges, the owners were basically slave owners. The players had no rights, didnt get paid, and if they had dark skin, wasnt aloud to play. Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Matthewson, Wagner all had skewed stats b/c they didnt play against blacks or hispanics, or relief pitchers. The HOF is full of disgusting people, and all McGwire did was use Andro, WHICH WAS LEGAL!!! Everything else is speculation. George Brett cheated, Perry was a cheater.....why are they in? hypocracy is the answer.

Cheaters, criminals and dickheads shouldn't get in without a compelling historical reason or awesome accomplishment. In my book, that disqualifies a few guys that you've mentioned. But I didn't get to vote then and I don't get to vote now.

My point is, all of these greats were a product of their time. These behaviors were accepted in those days, the same as performance enhancers in the 90s. If we keep McGwire out, then we have to keep out Clemens, Bonds, Maddux, Glavine and everyone else who played in the steroid era.

Everyone's a suspect in this era. But I would bet the farm on Mac's guilt, and that's enough for me.

 

[Bucklion]

Ok, here we go.

To say take away is HRs and he was nothing is ignorant. So, lets take away Pete Rose and Ty Cobb's singles and see how many hits they have. He was a power hitter, not a singles hitter. Sorry, this argument is just ridiculous.

To say he was a terrible fielder is even more ignorant. Do some research before making outrageous statements. Keith Hernandez is considered one of the all-time defensive greats at 1B...guess what....MM has just as good as numbers. MM had 103 Es compared to KH 115. McGwire's FP is .993 and KH is at .994. I know there is a difference of 251 games, but MM would've had to boot every other ball to fall much. KH had 6 seasons with 10+ Es and MM had 5. Plus MM had a Gold Glove.

Here is a link to his numbers (great site)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

Compare his numbers to other HOF 1B. Perez, Killebrew, Greenberg, Mize, McCovey. McGwire more than holds his own. As I am typing this, I cant remeber who said he was a terrible fielder, but compare his fielding to the others. MM is at the top of the list. He was a very good defensive player.

MM was 12 time AS, 3 time SS and lead the league multiple times in major hitting categories, and was always in the top 2-3.

His numbers shouldnt be an issue, so for all of you moralists.....

let's get rid of Ruth for being an awful person, Cobb was a racist and clilmbed into the stands and beat up a handicap fan, Cepeda was CONVICTED of 2 drug trafficking charges, the owners were basically slave owners. The players had no rights, didnt get paid, and if they had dark skin, wasnt aloud to play. Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Matthewson, Wagner all had skewed stats b/c they didnt play against blacks or hispanics, or relief pitchers. The HOF is full of disgusting people, and all McGwire did was use Andro, WHICH WAS LEGAL!!! Everything else is speculation. George Brett cheated, Perry was a cheater.....why are they in? hypocracy is the answer.

My point is, all of these greats were a product of their time. These behaviors were accepted in those days, the same as performance enhancers in the 90s. If we keep McGwire out, then we have to keep out Clemens, Bonds, Maddux, Glavine and everyone else who played in the steroid era.

I would address this, but the name calling makes it useless. Personally, I would say the statement that keeping out McGwire means you have to keep out Maddux is the "ridiculous" "ignorant" statement.

 

[OH10]

I for one only consider on-the-field exploits when talking about who belongs in the various Halls-of-Fame.

Why shouldn't character be an issue? Is baseball above the standards set be society for the NBA?

And then there's the obvious question brough up earlier about baseball, the Hall of Fame, and role models for young people.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I am not a role model

Personally, I don't much give a rats ass about the type of people these people are. I can understand the contention that we should honor those who did it the right way, just saying I don't much give a fuck about that. I just want to see someone score some fucking points, hit a long ball, strike out a shitload of folks.

Edit: I mean, when I was a kid, looking at baseball records, I hadn't the first clue about Ty Cobb's personality. I just knew the motherfucker could hit.

 

[BayBuck]

Why shouldn't character be an issue?

Because it's a sport's hall of fame, not the "life" hall of fame (which, come to think of it, probably wouldn't have a morals clause either given the many scoundrels who have achieved lasting fame). And if baseball didn't want a guy like McGwire to represent the sport, they should have done something years ago to keep steroids and other performance enhancers out of the game.

I think Pete Rose should be in too, but at least he was offically banned by the league.

 

[akronbuck]

He has my vote but, if he gets screwed from the hall of fame THEN EVERY SHORT STOP @ SECOND BASEMAN SHOULD GET BANNED TO THAT HIT OVER THE KNOWN AVERGE OF HR'S FROM THOSE FREAKY YEARS.

I know they said the ball was changed to pick up hitting but, how can they explain all those over 40's homers from the infielders

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Weak pitching? I mean the 1990s saw expansion, as such some arms that shouldn't have been in the majors were in the majors giving up home runs.

 

[Bucklion]

Weak pitching? I mean the 1990s saw expansion, as such some arms that shouldn't have been in the majors were in the majors giving up home runs.

That could explain why the bombers got a few more, but it certainly wouldn't be enough to explain, oh, I don't know, Brady Anderson's 50 HRs in 1996, for example.

If people want to say players from that era didn't get caught doing anything illegal and whatever, that's fine...but then don't turn around and compare the stats of the 90's with other eras, because it is completely apples to oranges.