Debt (economic, social, generational, etc.)

[Beenthere77]

We are a lazy people that waits on our government to lead us on issues like energy and health care.

I don't think we are even close to being lazy people and I don't see why we shouldn't expect our government to lead us on issues like energy and health care. I think the problem is we haven't had anyone step up with a unifying ideas on these issues. To solve both issues is going to take serious money and where is that going to come from? Our politicians get elected by getting things for their constituents, not by taking away benefits.

Yes, our armed services are overextended at this point but a draft will immediately fix that. Though China is a growing military threat, IMO, not only is this threat still many years away but Russia, India and Europe are in more danger than we are. Besides oil, what benefits are there for China going to war? With so many nuclear weapons surrounding them, their biggest weapon, people, can easily be neutralized.

As for our economy, IMO, it is semi following the socialistic path of Europe. They've been on a rough ride but it didn't bankrupt them. The tide is now turning back to the capitalistic model with Blair and the results of the elections in France and Germany. Afraid we're going to have to go down this path before we can reach a nice balance.

Religion has always been an excuse for man to hate each other, pretty ironic, IMO. Alway will be a perfect tool for some to gain power.

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

When I married in 1974, I had $400 in my pocket.

must have been a sizable prenup.

 

[Clarity]

This will not help either.

Well, I don't know. With something like that, it's hard not to see it as normal rhythm of things. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. While the "average" man is earning less, as a country we're still getting richer over all, which just means that aforementioned chasm grows wider. We know there's a breaking point to that, but who knows where, or how such a break would manifest itself.

Hard, that. Trying to understand where the appropriate balance is. Imagine for a moment no divide, a notion that runs contrary to most every foundation of democracy. Too little a divide steps on opportunity, too great steps upon the very quality of life here in America and helps undermine the future. Too much in either direction damages economic health. Much of it entirely out of the control of the people, even the government -- while critical aspects of it still certainly are.

 

[Taosman]

When China, Japan and all the others stop buying US Treasuries (aka loaning us money). Unfortunately, that is what it will take for the gov't to wake up and change their ways.

I read over the weekend that China has over 1.2 trillion in reserves, (the largest in the world) most of which they just park in US Treasuries. The time will come that it is no longer financially adventageous for them to invest that money solely in US debt. When that happens the interest rates we pay on our debt will rise dramatically (because there will be less demand for US debt, rates will have to rise to encourage more demand) forcing the US govt to figure out a way to borrow less. In effect they will be forced to reign in their spending. Free market at work.

I made the point or tried to on here one time that China had basically surpassed us and made us a second class world leader. We have, as someone once said, "sold them the rope to hang us(the capitalist) with.
We have already lost the economic war to China! Our corporate greed saw to that.

 

[fourteenandoh]

I made the point or tried to on here one time that China had basically surpassed us and made us a second class world leader. We have, as someone once said, "sold them the rope to hang us(the capitalist) with.
We have already lost the economic war to China! Our corporate greed saw to that.

The thing is, it will never (at least not anytime in this generation) be in China's best interest to "hang" us. Where do you think that 1.2 trillion reserve came from?

 

[Taosman]

"Yes, our armed services are overextended at this point but a draft will immediately fix that."
Good luck with that!
There is no way short of a world war, that the draft will be restored.
It will take decades to "fix" the damage down to the military. Just like the Vietnam era.

 

[Beenthere77]

I made the point or tried to on here one time that China had basically surpassed us and made us a second class world leader. We have, as someone once said, "sold them the rope to hang us(the capitalist) with.
We have already lost the economic war to China! Our corporate greed saw to that.

Being #2 or being second class are two completely different situations. Why do you think we've lost this war? Sounds exactly like what people were saying about Japan in the 80s. Once China's economy matures, they will go through the same growing pains Japan did and then we'll see who will win the economic war.

 

[Taosman]

The thing is, it will never (at least not anytime in this generation) be in China's best interest to "hang" us. Where do you think that 1.2 trillion reserve came from?

They won't need to "hang us".
Just twist our economic arm a little! Blackmail us, if you will.
They have started, already. Threatening to sell off US securities for putting tariffs on Chinese goods.

 

[Clarity]

Yes, our armed services are overextended at this point but a draft will immediately fix that.

You think we could sustain a draft right now, even if we had to? I have my doubts on several fronts.

Though China is a growing military threat, IMO, not only is this threat still many years away but Russia, India and Europe are in more danger than we are.

I'm not sure any of those countries are in danger from China. I don't think we are. Didn't mean to suggest before that we were. But in a world where we're plenty accustomed to making sure our interests and assets are covered, what to do in the face of a new superpower who has little interest in allowing us to dictate what their interests are. One who has an natural interest in making sure we don't always get our way.

Is it the onset of Cold War 2: Hu Jintao Boogaloo? Who knows, and entirely off-topic.

Besides oil, what benefits are there for China going to war? With so many nuclear weapons surrounding them, their biggest weapon, people, can easily be neutralized.

Again, I don't see China as some sort of expansionist threat to us, or really anyone else outside of Hong Kong. Wouldn't they seem more a counter-balance than a threat, in which case the value of their rise is pretty subjective geographically, politically, etc.

Religion has always been an excuse for man to hate each other, pretty ironic, IMO. Alway will be a perfect tool for some to gain power.

Of course. As independent as we are, there's still something in our code as a species that desires the very homogenization we abhor. Zealots would sometimes just as soon destroy opposing beliefs as assimulate them, and peaceful co-existence is often something of a fairy tale.

It's another area of delicate balance here in this country. Making sure we respect religion, without being defined or restricted by any of its 'flavors' or absence thereof, making sure there's room and opportunity for all. Nice in theory, not so easy in practical terms.

But back to the core point of the discussion. At what point, if ever, do we take everything we've learned, as well as the founding values and virtues, to construct a newer, better, faster, shinier base from which to build?

 

[Clarity]

The thing is, it will never (at least not anytime in this generation) be in China's best interest to "hang" us.

Agreed, and I want to try and reel in the China stuff a little bit as it runs well out of the scope and purpose. As the Soviet Union collapsed, the world looked around and saw American standing by itself as a lone super-power. Natural order requires that someone or a group of someones step up to provide balance.

But here's a country intimately familiar with our propensity to want to dictate our own terms, shoring up our own interests, globally. Does that make them hostile? Not in of itself. There they are though, a communist country that is poised to stand as our equal. Doesn't make communism 'good,' (as if virtue is some how defined in binary terms) and we realized decades ago that the "threat" of communism wasn't exactly all we feared it to be -- but it does raise some questions about assumptions we've made all along.

Makes me want to draw an analogy to Microsoft and Google, but again, this is all off the prescribed path.

 

[Taosman]

Being #2 or being second class are two completely different situations. Why do you think we've lost this war? Sounds exactly like what people were saying about Japan in the 80s. Once China's economy matures, they will go through the same growing pains Japan did and then we'll see who will win the economic war.

They have invested heavily in US securities, in effect "owning" a large part of America. They are a government sponsored/controlled economy.
Economics are seen as a "war".
China is experiencing growing pains, but can we depend on that to stop or change their political plans/views? Don't think so.
When Japan bought into America, we didn't have to worry about the Japanese government's intentions.

 

[Beenthere77]

"Yes, our armed services are overextended at this point but a draft will immediately fix that."
Good luck with that!
There is no way short of a world war, that the draft will be restored.
It will take decades to "fix" the damage down to the military. Just like the Vietnam era.

Agree, but if an emergency does pop up IMO we can handle it.

 

[Clarity]

Here's how China can be used to get back on topic.

- America, we might argue, is in danger of losing its economic high ground.
- Many would argue we've already lost our moral high ground.
- Our military high ground is there, even if it is indeed 'broken.'
- Our technological high ground is gone. Related to that, is education.
- Quality of life/human rights/equality high ground is gone.

Let's assume for a moment that these gross simplifications and assumptions have some truth to them. Not that "we suck" or some ridiculous self-loathing cry-baby or defeatist notion related to that. Just that where we once pointed to ourselves and quite literally said "we are the stick by which everyone else shall be measured" -- well we can't say that anymore, and our opportunity to even suggest it gets a little more narrow every year.

Now, one might reasonably argue "who cares who is #1"? Indeed, who really does? That's not the point though. Time has passed, the world has changed and advanced. I'll be brave and say "evolved". If we are the beacon we have been, and on many fronts still claim to be, how do we (and here's the biggest simplification and reduction of all) stay ahead of the competition?

 

[Beenthere77]

But back to the core point of the discussion. At what point, if ever, do we take everything we've learned, as well as the founding values and virtues, to construct a newer, better, faster, shinier base from which to build?

Tomorrow works for me. Seriously, I think we first need to come to a consensus on what is a newer, better, faster, shinier base. Is God part of this base, are we capitalist or socialists or a combination, where does defense and police fit in, are we a democracy or a republic, and on and on. I know what my opinion is but I doubt if everyone would agree with me.

 

[daddyphatsacs]

But back to the core point of the discussion. At what point, if ever, do we take everything we've learned, as well as the founding values and virtues, to construct a newer, better, faster, shinier base from which to build?

That is a hell of a question Clarity. I'd like to think that the American society, and our leaders have figured out what key issues have a way of dividing us (religion, political affiliation, class). Sadly, I don't think that the powers who run this country would ever go for building a new foundation, because that would put their power into question. Somewhere along the way America became a spoiled, fast food society. One that still wants all the perks of being a super power, but one who also serves at the desire of their own corporations and interests.........all the while, funding it on the cheap. This led to much of the money that built our foundation to start to be earned in other segments of the world, all the while.......we still continue to spend like we are the only power out there.

Debt means nothing to people who have never had to worry about such a thing. How many times in his life do you think that George Bush had to worry about spending too much? The same could be said for a majority of a the members of congress, and corporate leaders. They have never had to suffer the ramifications for poor decisions, because someone else would always sweep up their messes. I think that is the approach that our national leaders are taking. Sweep it under a rug, and hope that you milk the system for all it's worth before it collapses, and push the problem on to someone else.

It is going to take rational thinking to turn this thing around. You cannot continue to fund massive tax cuts if you take in less money than you spend. Normally, when most rational consumers are in a financial pinch, they find the expenses that they need to shave off, and get back into the green. If you have a checking account that is sitting at -$800, and take a check into the bank to cash it........they aren't going to do it. I guess I just do not get why no one in congress has the balls to make decisions which may actually put their political careers in jeopardy. Decisions that could actually make them a hero someday. I guess we'll chalk it up to complacency.........or fear.

As for a fix, I don't see one..........